Jump to content

Ideas to improve the server - feel free to post!


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, R-78 said:

There is only one bad point about it that I can't let go: it might as well just incite people to exploit that and log multiple chars in a same room in order to get more chances of drops. At worst, 4 chars for 4x more drops. I have seen people do it for PGF last year and RR a couple weeks ago even though there is still a DAR reduction.

Honestly I don't think anyone would complain if it was against the rules to log 4 accounts for drops, since it's an unfair advantage not everyone can do(it requires 4 devices that can run PSO as far as I know, since if you quad-log on a single device only the first account will get drops).

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 3.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

New Suggestion - Lead Admin role. Someone basically just under Larva who can do all the owner stuff without actually being the owner. They can sort stuff like events, mini-events, new items, hiri

It's been two years, why not post this again...   New weapon idea: Unlocked L&K38 Combat - Psycho Combat. Made by using L&K38 and a Psycho Black Crystal (or other modifier, take

You seem confused. Then why isn't anybody saying how Demon Yas9k is broken? It's the only weapon that does what it does as effectively as it does. Whats so wrong with Hunters finally having a dec

Posted Images

5 hours ago, applesaucin said:

Another thought i had is a monster hunter style drop rate cap. So like if an item has a 1/100 drop rate, if you kill, lets say double that rate, so 200 of that creature, the game will by default give you the item on the 201 drop. I find this idea would be incredibly confidence boosting for new players. 

What Monster Hunter game Is that? :onion-head49:

As far as my few experience goes about Monster Hunter games, that system does not exist In the game >.>.. (MH3 experience: I hunted over 100 Rathia ns for a Ruby that never dropped and gave up. Then In a casual run It dropped, after I lost Interest Dx )

Link to post
Share on other sites

Talking about DAR, just yesterday as an example during HH, ONCE AGAIN I hesitated to rather solo POD OR have fun with my teammates with a reduced droprate.
I caps lock my once again because I have that dilemma very very often, when I think about hunting an item.

In first scenario I have more chances to get an STA (& get bored) or on a second hand, less chances but with more fun...
Which sounds weird or against the primary concept of a game qualified as MMORPG (massive is a strong word for a 4 people party but you get the point, PSOBB is a pioneer in this style of game).

 

Also as an important note; I do thing that "just" reducing the DAR effect and still allow dual-log could worsen the actual balance with more abuses as R-78 stated earlier (PGF/RR farm).

 

Then for the sake of multi-players games, I'm all down to remove dual-logand balance DAR by finding a compromise if not totally removed.

*with some simple exceptions/rules such as; banking stuff/gear through accounts, mag feeding etc

 

What do you think?

 

Edited by Lipelis
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I remember and what I know of Tethella the drop charts is literally a read and write system. If that makes sense.

Say for the forest; iirc theres like 32 boxes?
this is the example of the drop rate table

Box 1: 1/300 (chance) then item iirc it was off of a item code that was hex code; I could be inccorect in this. But it was weird how they had this set up.

As well as drop rates for enemies;

Booma 1/300 item.

DAR I dont know too much about other then it is a "Drop anything rate" xD for the DAR to try and work with the setup drop table for the game it is impossible? Unless Soly somehow coded something entirely different for PSO to read; but Saith has preached numerous times, PSO is hardcoded. A lot of the things that are currently working is extremely difficult to have been made from what I understand.

This could be gibberish speak; but this is to my knowledge and understanding of how the drop table actually works. From my experience with tethella years ago.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In order to save me the pain of typing all of this again, I will simply paste my staff post from 7 months ago.

(Larva didn't reply)

 

On 4/22/2020 at 4:11 PM, R-78 said:

[...] here is my proposition:

- Increase Individual DARs from 100% 80% 70% 60% to 100% 95% 91% 88% (basically almost no reduction) 

- Update the guidelines and add a new rule: 

It is strictly forbidden to use multiple characters on an individual dropstyle run in order to get more drops.

What does that mean?

  • If a player uses multiple chars on pioneer, it's all good (usually needed for trades, items transfers etc)
  • If a player uses multiple chars for more rewards in quests like Christmas Catastrophe or to get Type weapons, they still can do it but will have to turn dropstyle to Shared mode so we are sure they are not abusing the Individual dropstyle.
  • If a player uses multiple chars in a hunt room* for whatever reason such as Section ID, supporting themselves etc, then it is only allowed if the dropstyle is set to Shared mode.
  • For World of Illusions, open to discussion as we all know this quest is broken for PD farming because of quad logging the first room Fixed
  • If a moderator or GM sees a hunt room* with at least 2 chars that have the same IP or related accounts on Ragol with the Individual dropstyle enabled, then they can warn/disconnect/ban the player in question. They'd just need to make sure this is not a specific situation like two brothers playing together in the same room. (it's easy to check if it's a same person)

*By "Hunt room", I mean a TTF, a LHB on ultimate etc, if it's a Forest room on very hard then it's fine of course as we can assume they're just testing stuff or leveling. This would not appear in the rule in order to avoid confusion about weither it is allowed or not.

 

 

Why not 100% 100% 100% 100% ?

So that there is still a (VERY) little sacrifice to do if you are going to just let your friends join at boss for free drops (free roam CCA, Seabed and Desert).

As a regular player, I am well aware of how frustrating it is to run entire runs of RT and get no drop from Olga Flow because of the DAR reduction.

But if we make it full 100% that would completely alter Ultima's global game economy, unless we rework all drop tables to adjust the rates.

 

This is how many items will drop in a room according to the number of players.

(Left is considering current DARs, right is with the DARs I suggested)

1P : 100% global drops => 100% global drops (X 1)

2P : 160% global drops => 190% global drops (X 1.1875)

3P : 210% global drops => 273% global drops (X 1.3)

4P : 240% global drops => 352% global drops (X 1.467)

Basically with this change, 4P rooms will get almost 1.5X more drops than they currently are.

 

Also we might need to make Seabed multi mode maps doable in one person. Done

 

I really think if we do this, everyone would be happy (except the ones who liked to exploit multiclient drops <_<)

We don't even need to be much more vigilant or active to track abuses, this rule is mostly a deterrent: no one will risk getting their accounts banned for the sake of getting more chances in their hunt. They can also be reported.

 

Opinions?

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, R-78 said:

In order to save me the pain of typing all of this again, I will simply paste my staff post from 7 months ago.

(Larva didn't reply)

 

I remember there is a quest on Episode 4 named "LOGiN presents 勇場のマッチレース" or something similar that will boot the players out of the quest automatically if the requirements are not met (4 players must join or something)? (i.e. you can't solo it).
Perhaps you can re-use this piece of code on every quest to automatically check if players are using Individual Drops + multiple log combo and /lobby them if they attempt to start a quest?

 

Anyways I believe that disabling drops for 2nd, 3rd and 4th players with same IP is an easier solution, so you don't have to completely get rid of Individual Drop + multiple log combo.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Yannv said:

Perhaps you can re-use this piece of code on every quest to automatically check if players are using Individual Drops + multiple log combo and /lobby them if they attempt to start a quest?

Although this is probably not even possible (talking about quest script things), if it were, it'd definitely be a security concern.

 

14 hours ago, Yannv said:

Anyways I believe that disabling drops for 2nd, 3rd and 4th players with same IP is an easier solution, so you don't have to completely get rid of Individual Drop + multiple log combo.

The problem with this scenario is when multiple people play from the same internet connection.
While there is probably not even 5%? of people doing so, but those who do would be screwed.

 

The game also uses another identifier, that although is not reliable can be used to do that "no multiple drops on the same pc", but then is not fair because some people will either have multiple computers or use virtual machines to run more game instances.

 

I think the main problem is trying to maintain the archaic system of "here is a drop, now fight between yourselves for it" and trying to balance it with a system that gives each player their own drop, I have voiced my opinion of just getting rid of the DAR reduction completely... but doing so is "unfair" for those who play alone (or can't find a party to play with).

 

So yeah, if it's not clear, I am on the remove dar reduction side.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an Idea how about we buff Prophets of Motav because I found one! Give Snow Queen the ability to freeze even your team mates in a straight line lol... No seriously though about DAR, we need to figure something out because soloing drops for the sake of having a higher chance is counter to what we are here for in the first place. If people are quad logging drops then thats pretty simple to figure out. @R-78 I like her thoughts on this however I want to be able to use Sacred Bow on HUcast as it is optimal for HUcast if 3 submissions are required I can Quad Log.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just adding my personal input to what Soly said. I'm an on and off again player of PSO on this server and normally when I do get back into the game again (I am currently) I have new friends that I've talked into playing with me.  Since they are new to PSO we often both play from my home (same IP address).

Having the drops restricted when players have the same IP address would be a major issue. It's a shame there isn't some way to do shared drops for rares but then a 1 - 4 roll to see who gets the item instead of who picks it up first.

  • Dislike 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, CrimJob said:

It's a shame there isn't some way to do shared drops for rares but then a 1 - 4 roll to see who gets the item instead of who picks it up first.

That's probably worse tbh... imagine, as this is still RNG, you don't get anything ever... oof...

 

I still think just removing that dar reduction would be better, and deal with the "abuse" of it later on.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, CrimJob said:

Just adding my personal input to what Soly said. I'm an on and off again player of PSO on this server and normally when I do get back into the game again (I am currently) I have new friends that I've talked into playing with me.  Since they are new to PSO we often both play from my home (same IP address).

Having the drops restricted when players have the same IP address would be a major issue. It's a shame there isn't some way to do shared drops for rares but then a 1 - 4 roll to see who gets the item instead of who picks it up first.


well then you guys can easily decide amongst yourselves who gets it and use a random roll die irl or online or any other system you want, be it rotating runs, drop turns, or whatever else. There honestly was never much issue with people ninja-ing drops even before individual drops existed, it was always an extremely rare occurrence and gm could step in if need be. It was always basically a non-issue.

We have to remember the pso was not designed to have split drops originally. Everything that has been changed since has only ever made things far easier for players. Removing dar reduction would go even further for making things easier. However, doing that doesn't just pertain to any one item. I'm of the opinion that shared and split dropstyles in games have completely fundamentally different balancing principles. I don't want to push the drops to the point where there is no economy of trading anything and every player is an island isolated from the rest of the community.

Part of the identity of pso is that the drops are hard, they take effort and grinding to get, and it's through overcoming that challenge that the rewards are sweeter for it. You gotta be willing to shed some blood, sweat, and tears, but when that red box shine shows up on your screen you feel accomplished. While I do like a lot of the quality of life changes made (like exp rates, rare monster boost, etc.) to reduce a lot of the  more tedious parts of grinding that pso originally had, forcing an unreduced split drop system onto a game that was not balanced for it will just make a broken mess that no longer resembles the original game. I really don't want to put in the effort of going through and changing every drop on every difficulty to try to keep the spirit of the game just because people want even easier drops.

People always want easier drops. And they're already pretty easy, whenever I've set up the event tables it's usually been with respect that people are playing a game in their free time, so the rates are such that if they put in a couple of hours each week through the event, they can reasonably expect to be rewarded for their effort. And with the split dropstyle, you do get a very significant boost over playing solo, it's hard to call it a reduction when you are getting multiple drop chances from a each monster, while also enjoying the benefit of a team supporting you to make things easier and going through more difficult quests faster.

I don't think individual drops with no reduction promotes people working together more, but rather the opposite. It promotes hoarding of any drop you see, it doesn't make you work 'with' others to get drops (can't even help someone get a banner), but rather work for yourself and yourself alone without regard to others (hey, maybe the force might really like that trifluid that dropped on your screen, but no, it's obviously 'yours' because the rng rolled it for you so they don't deserve it). It makes every player into an island with little need to interact with others. You aren't supposed to get everything by yourself, that's why mechanics like section IDs exist. You help each other get things, are able to trade helping for one thing for getting help on another, and are able to trade the things you don't need for things you do. Even ignoring the idea of the issue (or non-issue) that a split drop system is supposed to solve, a fully unreduced one is both incongruent with how all of the item rates were designed to be, and not in line with the spirit of the game.

 

Sorry about wall of text, but the issue is very complex, couldn't find too many unnecessary ideas to trim out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Fyrewolf5 said:

so the rates are such that if they put in a couple of hours each week through the event, they can reasonably expect to be rewarded for their effort.

And what If they are not D;:onion126:

Edited by Kotta
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Fyrewolf5 said:


We have to remember the pso was not designed to have split drops originally. Everything that has been changed since has only ever made things far easier for players. Removing dar reduction would go even further for making things easier. However, doing that doesn't just pertain to any one item. I'm of the opinion that shared and split dropstyles in games have completely fundamentally different balancing principles. I don't want to push the drops to the point where there is no economy of trading anything and every player is an island isolated from the rest of the community.

Part of the identity of pso is that the drops are hard, they take effort and grinding to get, and it's through overcoming that challenge that the rewards are sweeter for it. You gotta be willing to shed some blood, sweat, and tears, but when that red box shine shows up on your screen you feel accomplished. While I do like a lot of the quality of life changes made (like exp rates, rare monster boost, etc.) to reduce a lot of the  more tedious parts of grinding that pso originally had, forcing an unreduced split drop system onto a game that was not balanced for it will just make a broken mess that no longer resembles the original game. I really don't want to put in the effort of going through and changing every drop on every difficulty to try to keep the spirit of the game just because people want even easier drops.

People always want easier drops. And they're already pretty easy, whenever I've set up the event tables it's usually been with respect that people are playing a game in their free time, so the rates are such that if they put in a couple of hours each week through the event, they can reasonably expect to be rewarded for their effort. And with the split dropstyle, you do get a very significant boost over playing solo, it's hard to call it a reduction when you are getting multiple drop chances from a each monster, while also enjoying the benefit of a team supporting you to make things easier and going through more difficult quests faster.

I don't think individual drops with no reduction promotes people working together more, but rather the opposite. It promotes hoarding of any drop you see, it doesn't make you work 'with' others to get drops (can't even help someone get a banner), but rather work for yourself and yourself alone without regard to others (hey, maybe the force might really like that trifluid that dropped on your screen, but no, it's obviously 'yours' because the rng rolled it for you so they don't deserve it). It makes every player into an island with little need to interact with others. You aren't supposed to get everything by yourself, that's why mechanics like section IDs exist. You help each other get things, are able to trade helping for one thing for getting help on another, and are able to trade the things you don't need for things you do. Even ignoring the idea of the issue (or non-issue) that a split drop system is supposed to solve, a fully unreduced one is both incongruent with how all of the item rates were designed to be, and not in line with the spirit of the game.

I believe you're confusing people's desire for PSO to actively encourage cooperation and playing in teams, with people asking for an easier drop rate. 

 

The drop rates are not the problem, the problem is that the way in which individual drops are handled actively discourages the community from interacting with each other, especially during events. If you don't believe me check the rooms during the next weekend Happy hour and you'll see 3 quarters of them are password locked, while having space for more players to join. The effect of this is that players who are not already connected with veteran players or in a team like triforce or UPS, have no one to play with, and are stuck in the lobby waiting for 15 or 20 minutes before finding someone to play with. This hurts the community and drives players away.

 

 

And you really can't blame them for not wanting to play with others when the DAR is so punishing. Take the STA drop. If it's 1/300, than means playing in a team of 4 people reduces your chances to 1/500, a massive difference. If POD takes 12 minutes to run, counter-to-counter, than on average it would take 90 hours to get an STA, requiring much more than the "a couple hours each week."  I understand that "You gotta be willing to shed some blood, sweat, and tears" for the best armor in the game, but the majority of players don't need to play in a team of 4 to finish POD, so again, they are discouraged from participating with the community because there is no trade off for going from 1/300 or 1/375 to 1/500. And what they lose is dozens of hours of their time on average achieving a drop. 

 

We can argue about what the original intention of the designers of PSO was, but we also have to remember that this game was developed to be used with dial-up internet, and when AOL was the #1 website in the world. The developers of PSO were learning as they went and were working within the limitations of the time. I'm sure there are people who like the purity of goldeneye's auto-aim mechanic, but that doesn't make oddjob any less problematic. I'm sure people enjoy the nostalgia of the original 151 pokemon, but the game is still an unbalanced mess. A game's mechanics need to be evaluated by the effects it has on gameplay. In the case of DAR, it discourages socializing in a social game. 

 

I obviously love the grind of PSO or I wouldn't be here, I think the majority of players here would say the same. However, that's not the sole reason people enjoy PSO, especially a community run server of PSO. The DAR reduction undermines the community that we are trying to build and maintain here. And complaints that some players might get a drop slightly more easily is trivial when compared to the benefits it would bring to the community and the way people approach hunting for items.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Me and my brother play exclusive in 2-man locked games when we are hunting things.
The idea that letting strangers join, knowing it would punish us, is not something we entertain.
I'd love to run with 4-man teams but all it does is lower my chances of getting anything.
If me or my brother find two of whatever we're hunting then we give one to the other so that we both have something. I can't imagine the randoms that join us would be willing to part with their drops in the same way. The only thing we lose is the social aspect.
I'm more than happy to run 4-man teams when grinding exp but the idea that our STA drop chance would half from what it is already is the only reason we password our drop hunting games.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, jdhenry124 said:

I believe you're confusing people's desire for PSO to actively encourage cooperation and playing in teams, with people asking for an easier drop rate. 

 

The drop rates are not the problem, the problem is that the way in which individual drops are handled actively discourages the community from interacting with each other, especially during events. If you don't believe me check the rooms during the next weekend Happy hour and you'll see 3 quarters of them are password locked, while having space for more players to join. The effect of this is that players who are not already connected with veteran players or in a team like triforce or UPS, have no one to play with, and are stuck in the lobby waiting for 15 or 20 minutes before finding someone to play with. This hurts the community and drives players away.

 

 

And you really can't blame them for not wanting to play with others when the DAR is so punishing. Take the STA drop. If it's 1/300, than means playing in a team of 4 people reduces your chances to 1/500, a massive difference. If POD takes 12 minutes to run, counter-to-counter, than on average it would take 90 hours to get an STA, requiring much more than the "a couple hours each week."  I understand that "You gotta be willing to shed some blood, sweat, and tears" for the best armor in the game, but the majority of players don't need to play in a team of 4 to finish POD, so again, they are discouraged from participating with the community because there is no trade off for going from 1/300 or 1/375 to 1/500. And what they lose is dozens of hours of their time on average achieving a drop. 

 

We can argue about what the original intention of the designers of PSO was, but we also have to remember that this game was developed to be used with dial-up internet, and when AOL was the #1 website in the world. The developers of PSO were learning as they went and were working within the limitations of the time. I'm sure there are people who like the purity of goldeneye's auto-aim mechanic, but that doesn't make oddjob any less problematic. I'm sure people enjoy the nostalgia of the original 151 pokemon, but the game is still an unbalanced mess. A game's mechanics need to be evaluated by the effects it has on gameplay. In the case of DAR, it discourages socializing in a social game. 

 

I obviously love the grind of PSO or I wouldn't be here, I think the majority of players here would say the same. However, that's not the sole reason people enjoy PSO, especially a community run server of PSO. The DAR reduction undermines the community that we are trying to build and maintain here. And complaints that some players might get a drop slightly more easily is trivial when compared to the benefits it would bring to the community and the way people approach hunting for items.


The problem of locked rooms was an issue before split drops, it's an issue after, and it'll be an issue no matter what we do. People aren't going to wait around for randoms to join during hh, they're going to go go go. Not everyone even can or want to play with others all the time either. Language barriers, time zones, physical handicaps, anxiety, or any number of personal reasons might prevent people from playing with others. Even if everyone did always want to have a full group, they're still going to pick and choose the ones they want in the room, and it would just be a bunch of 4p locked rooms with randoms still in lobby unable to join them regardless. People will still choose the ones they want to play with first, and still potentially exclude randoms just because they want to play with their friends, or they don't want the random slowing down their run speed, or literally just don't want to be dismayed from seeing someone not in their 'in group' get one in their room before them, or any number of reasons. Players usually have to work out teams in lobby before going to a game, and there's no passwords on the lobby, but it still requires people actually willing to take randoms with them. Tribalism is human nature after all.

 

STA is a poor example, since it's supposed to be arguably the hardest or second hardest thing to get in the entire game (pgf being the other). And I think you are seriously misrepresenting the concepts. If you are doing solo "pod in 12 minutes counter to counter", then you're definitely getting banned for hacking lol. Solo usually will take people closer to 18-20 minutes. Not only will solo be slower, it'll also require significantly more effort from the player as opposed to when in a team. Your idea of the drop rate is also a misrepresentation. You get multiple chances at the drop when the drops are split, there's more chance for the item to spawn, not less. It's more like saying instead of 1/300 (I've never set sta that hard myself) it's now more like 1/125 for it to show up in that room. And that misinterpretation is exactly what I was saying about how split drops doesn't promote playing with others, but only for yourself. If a group is running for it, and it drops 4 times on one players screen, would they give others the extra ones that dropped on their screen? Some might like to think they would, but many others would use the rng drops as a justification for their own selfishness (extreme example, but it absolutely happens to lesser degrees constantly, with all sorts of items). Saying there is a trade off for playing with others is ignoring that the drop chance is rolling multiple times in the room, and ignoring the extra speed, support, and ease you get from being in a team. If you actually account for those things, then a group running together for a drop is actually relatively likely to get a similar amount of them regardless of how they pair up; it does depend on a large number of factors like team pairings, skill, choosing easy vs hard quests, etc., but overall usually is actually pretty close (some things are hard to quantify too, like the ease of not always being surrounded by enemies when in a 2p run splitting up for mobs, or other such things, but the %chance of runs per time is usually close enough to handwave explain minor probability differences).

This ties back in to what I said at the start, players usually have to work out teams in lobby before going to a game, and while there are no passwords on the lobby, it still requires people actually willing to take randoms with them. Drop chances are just a convenient excuse, because if they actually did bring along the random and it made their runs faster and easier and everyone was actually working together for drops rather than just for themselves, then it would actually be comparable. That's something that doesn't come across so easily.

 

Drop chance increasing with player count on a scalar rather than a simple chance x playercount increase is the norm for most games, rather than the other way around. Asking for completely unreduced chances is not just 'slightly more easy', but a pretty huge change, that's actually doubling drop rates. Trying to do that and maintain balance would be an absolute nightmare. Even so, I think to get people to actually include randoms regardless of their own personal reasons would require far more of a boost than just 'no reduction', but rather a massive increase just for having the 4th over a 3rd, which I'm not sure how that could even be implemented at all, let alone balanced. Since people will always choose different types of hunting, and it won't always be a choice of 4p, I think the best we can strive for is balance between hunting styles, and I don't believe that unreduced chances are balanced for a game like pso.

Spoiler

(maybe for games of a completely different design type where items are completely isolated and separated from others, like soulbound or something, with no trading or *maybe* extremely limited trading, but those have different balancing principles for rates and is not something we can or should put in pso, and even in such games people will still choose to do non-max player hunts regardless of loot chance scaling) /tangent

 I'm not convinced that saying 'fuck it' to trying to maintain some semblance of balancing to how you choose to hunt and just doubling drop chances across the board is going to somehow override tribalist human nature.

Regardless, I'm just one guy, but I don't think an issue of people hunting with less than max parties is as simple of an issue to fix as just making rates be or sound better (probability is complicated) with a full party. I think having things like quests that actually require 4p and give bonuses to drop rates, like a maximum attack style event or other such things are better options to explore.

Edit: I wouldn't also be averse to considering slight tweaks to dar though, like I'm personally considering what it would be like to reduce 2p slightly and increase 4p. I just don't think removing them entirely is a good idea.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...