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46 members have voted

  1. 1. How do you wanna consider Ultima?

    • As a grind-friendly experience balanced between original PSOBB concepts and new ones.
    • As a highly modded experience fitting the modern RPGs standards with a fast progression.
    • As an old school challenging experience revamped with useful features to keep a classic PSOBB alive.


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Posted (edited)
Quote

Now Serene Swan is far from a Varista or Water Gun low-tier class available for every single class. Maybe this general buff still sounds fair to some of you but in fact it's makes the strongest classes even more superior due to their higher based ATP and the reasons to play the lower ATP classes more thin than they already are...
Because in the end, equality is not always fair nor in favor of a varied experience;


This point here is what I find annoying. Nobody is forcing anyone to play as Hucast. You could easily use the same weapon on any other class and be relevant
I think you should post a video of SS in action in something like R-78 new quest. That range means nothing without enemies being stunned / frozen. yeah you might be able to 1v1 a meri but we all know that that isn't even a realistic scenario. 
Also why dont you compare how many shots it takes to kill the same enemy with the other hunter classes? with maxed ata atp luck??? Im pretty sure its 1 less bullet fired....
 

3 hours ago, Larva said:

Another idea would be to reduce speed and combo lock the weapon.

To clarify, something is gonna be done to the weapon.

It's not just about refunding the dts spent on this weapon to max its stats though? What if you traded something of high value in order to obtain the right ammount of dts to max out SS stats, whereas you would not have traded If the weapon didnt exist in the first place? 

Are you going to be reinbursing for that? I dont think you have even thought that far.

Just leave the damn thing as it is. The 5 people that think it should get nerfed can bank their SS and use something else. Between hucast and hucaseal its 1 bullets difference using the scenario from the video and that is still 2 combos... what is the damn issue?

I dont understand how a topic can resurface and trigger you when you stated you were not going to do anything.

Edited by rashan0121
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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, rashan0121 said:

This point here is what I find annoying. Nobody is forcing anyone to play as Hucast. You could easily use the same weapon on any other class and be relevant
I think you should post a video of SS in action in something like R-78 new quest. That range means nothing without enemies being stunned / frozen. yeah you might be able to 1v1 a meri but we all know that that isn't even a realistic scenario. 
Also why dont you compare how many shots it takes to kill the same enemy with the other hunter classes? with maxed ata atp luck??? Im pretty sure its 1 less bullet fired....

Well go ahead since I can't cover every scenarios as you said, you can read in the introduction & conclusion of my post that all tests and video-showcases from other players are very welcome and encouraged as written.
So even if a part of my opinion does not suits your point of view, feel free to post what you find right with ingame facts if you feel the need to (as Noob Saibot did for example).

Edited by Lipelis

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Seems like this has devolved into "Disgruntled players vs Ultima Staff", so here's my two cents.

I've been a forum mod. I've been a staff member for a gaming website. I've looked over chat logs to scour for evidence and offenses, hosted servers for games and had to judge things concerning nitpicky differences about fair play for everyone, pushed too far over little things... a fair few things staff members here seem to have to do, too.

Larva, I'm not fond of you. You appear inconsistent as could be about activity and care, and I fundamentally begrudge anyone at the top of a ladder who doesn't show more zeal for their job than the people they lead. However, you also have one of the most thankless kinds of jobs in a situation like these as head of operations, and have shown you're not simply out to trample over others by acting immediately on whims, despite having little concern about stepping on toes. (And let's be frank, a few of the most popular people here have as little concern about the same thing, so it's not an insult.)
As much evidence, theorycrafting, and feedback has been given by people who recognize the many strengths and few balance issue weaknesses the weapon has, I'm sure you and whatever number of staff members you talk with have enough to go by to avoid over- or under-tweaking the weapon. You can probably tell, the community cares about balance and fun. Please try not to leave them out of the equation about things like this; small communities thrive on transparency.

As for the weapon itself: Please don't Water Gun down the Swan. Your community clearly has a lot invested in it.

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7 hours ago, Starlord said:

Have you ever tried sues coat on hucaseal? People disregard armor boost because they are so fixated on STA and dark weapons. Hucaseal is a monster, with her ATA she can hit everything without missing as much as hucast can. I agree everything you said on racaseal, they need love but people should really look into it with more depth when talking about hucaseal because they been using it wrong apparently. I think hucaseal in most cases shines more than hucast. You put sues coat on and adds an extra 100 ATP.

That puts her at #2 of ATP above humar and with macho blades SD +7 puts her in a really competitive spot and let’s not forget her ATA. 

thanks for your answer.

yeah i tried it cause hucl is my main for like 5 years or so. yeah she is really a monster with her ATA compared to huct. but huct got 338 more atp than hucl (238 if hucl wears sues coat)
but whilest hucl has to wear sues coat to get a 100atp boost huct is able to wear STA and stuffs, i mean if you know how to play hu you dont need STA on ;) also with hit on your weapons also huct is able to hit anything if you N-H-H
but still if you compare huct's ATP (1739) + ATP of PR (640) to hucl? For me SS would give hucl such a big buff so that huct and hucl really dont take away anything of each other.
ive played hucl for 5 years and huct for 3 years and still feel more comfortable with hucl but for me that would be the buff she needed for single dps weapon. huct still stronger in solo runs without a high lvl sd cause PR just breaks anything lol

and about racl - now i really feel like she deserved the SS to get out of the shadow of ract even if ract still would be slightly better

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Posted (edited)

Well, I won't say again about not nerfing the Serene Swan because that has already been said multiple times. But, if a nerf is about to happen, I beg for moderation to least do something coherent.


What do I mean by being coherent?
Make it a weapon that has a purpose to exist, is a improvement of something else, and adds something new to the playability.

What I explained on my first post, the way another server found to make both unlocked versions of Master Raven and L&K38 Combat useful but at the same time, not game breaking was: nerfing its ATP, its ATA or its Grind, but, keeping the essence of the weapon. What's the essence of Serene Swan? 12 unique bullets (an hybrid of Master Raven + L&K38 Combat). Nerfing the essence of the weapon would ruin its purpose.

As others mentioned, and Lipelis, for example:
All FOrces already have: Lindcray/Bringer's Rifle/Ultima Bringer's - for long range option and Rage De Glace/Samba Fiesta - for close combat option.
Rangers already have: Heaven Striker/Charge or Demon Yasminkov 9000M - for long range option and Psycho Raven (males) / Mille Faucilles (females) - for close combat option.

Banana Cannon and Crush Cannon don't meet the criteria because although I consider them close combat options, they are shots, multi-target weapons.

So, my suggestion is to keep Serene Swan being useable by Hunter classes only. That will already exclude Rangers and Forces from using it. Fortunately though, they already have plenty of options of weapons choice, so it isn't a big deal if they don't have access to SS.

How to balance it?

Lets look again at the 2014 SCHT changes to Master Raven and L&K38 Combat and compare to Last/Serene Swan:
 

Master Raven
Vanilla/Ultima PSOBB: +380 ATP, +52 ATA (150 ATA req), +5 MST, can be grinded to +9, combo locked.
2014 SCHTHack: +118 ATP, +42 ATA (150 ATA req), +5 MST, can be grinded to +9, combo unlocked.
Lord's special
Only males can use Master Raven.
Fires 9 bullets per combo.

L&K38 Combat
Vanilla/Ultima PSOBB: +250 ATP, +40 ATA (145 ATA req), -30 EVP, can be grinded to +25, combo locked.
2014 SCHTHack: +80 ATP,  0 ATA (145 ATA req), -30 EVP, no grind, combo unlocked.
Burning special
All classes can use L&K38 Combat.
Fires 15 bullets per combo.

Last Swan
+90 ATP, +32 ATA (150 ATA req), +5 MST, can be grinded to +9. 
Lord's special
Only females can use Last Swan.
Fires 9 bullets per combo.

Serene Swan
175 ATP, +37 ATA (170 ATA req), can be grinded to +80. 
Devil's special
All classes can use Serene Swan.
Fires 12 bullets per combo.

Serene Swan could probably use the same kind of improvement. To make it equivalent to Master Raven (9 bullets) in terms of damage output, it would need at least 90 ATP. 
Suggestion: Make it grind to +40 only or remove the grind and keep the base ATP to 80-90.
Personally, I suggest 100-150 ATP at least, because otherwise, it would be just slightly better than Last Swan. Means it would be questionable to look for this item if Last Swans with lots of status are so easy to get on Valentine's Event, whereas Serene Swan isn't.

So, Serene Swan is still way too good on HUcast/HUcaseal compared to their counterparts, HUmar and HUnewearl. How to fix this?
Gives it a special that could be exclusively useable on those classes = Spirit
That way, HUcast SS = HUnewearl SS (Special attack) = HUmar SS (Special attack) = HUcaseal SS

An example of this is the Rainbow weapon concept used on SCHT.

Also, Spirit is probably the best special choice because:

  • Makes SS being desirable to use on HUmars: He is the 2nd best ATP character in game and for that only reason, would make it the best weapon for that forgotten class since long time
  • Makes SS being desirable to use on HUnewearl: Due to its high TP and an interesting alternative to Lindcray
  • Isn't harmful to the game balance, when used on Androids like HUcast and HUcaseal (who could reach the 2nd place in best ATP if using Sue's Coat)

 

Rifle range vs. Handgun range

About the range... as R-78 revealed on previous posts:
Mechgun Range : 85 (including Psycho Raven)
Handgun Range : 170
Rifle Range : 210

There's a great difference between Handgun and Rifle range. Is nerfing the range on Serene Swan that big deal? Could Serene Swan be the perfect rifle range weapon Hunters were needing?

Hunters doesn't have that many rifle range weapons compared to their counterparts. Their options currently are:

Lindcray - Useable only by HUnewearls. Spirit special. HUmar, HUcast and HUcaseal can't equip them, since the MST requirement is way too high.
Asteron Striker - Meant to be used for Hell special, but the damage output is really low and it is in general, a slow weapon.
Eggblaster Mk2 - Strong weapon, but really slow due to the nature of their bullets
Water Gun - Its usefullness relies in having any special, but it is in general not meant for damaging enemies because it is a slow weapon and the ATP is low as well. Its ATA was nerfed as well, meaning there are other weapons could be potentially more useful than WG.

The biggest weakness the Hunters have in combat (specially on quests like Tower) are ranged attacks. Not only they need to reach close to their enemies to unleashed their attacks, but also evade and position themselves correctly to not get sniped by one hit kill enemies. Example of this are Mericarol/Merikle/Mericus plants, Purple Shielded Epsilons, far away enemies that can't be easily reached by walking. 

Hunters are also missing a fast and strong weapon to clean room leftfovers. This is specially important on quests like ToD (Tower of Dreams) by R-78, CCC (Cal's Clock Challenge) by Lemon, PPP (Power Plant Plight) by Lemon, ROW (Realms of War), RoCT (Raid on Central Tower), Maximum Attacks quests in general, where a single enemy left, floating in the room, means wasted time.

Serene Swan may be the perfect weapon Hunters were needing for this purpose.
Hunters, as well as Forces, already have a great disadvantage regarding the use of ranged weapons. They need Smartlink unit to remove the ATA penalty they naturally have on the ATA vs EVP check when dealing attacks. This unit is a must and means those classes only have 3 units lefts for whatever purpose they need. Maybe, 2 units if you consider you will be always wearing Centurion/Battle. That already puts Rangers in a great advantage regarding unit flexibility.
 

That's the reason I personally would leave rifle range and the twelve bullets as something unqiue and exclusive to this weapon.

Why four (twelve) bullets?

Because there is a great difference between SCHT's Centurion/Battle (50% Speed) and Ultima's Centurion Battle (110% speed). Comboing with Last Swan (3 bullets only) is very hard and difficult to keep the timing with proper combos. The addition of one more bullet is what solved this problem, makes the combo much more smoother, easy to keep and feels synchronized with Ultima's Centurion/Battle speed.

And there's a technical reason involved as well. Rifle range wouldn't be possible with three bullets only, like the Last Swan pattern.

 

TL;DR - In a nutshell, my suggestion for the revamped version of Serene Swan would be:
 

Serene Swan
100 ATP (0 base ATP) , +37 ATA (170 ATA req), can be grinded to +50. 
Spirit special
Rifle range
Only Hunters can use Serene Swan.
Fires 12 bullets per combo.

 

This is my last suggestion. As others said, with all the feedback we got on this page, I think the server's administrator and the staff got more than enough options and ideas to make a great choose, while keeping the player base happy with the result.

And hopefully, a decision is taken after all and maintained until the end of Ultima's existence. We all seek for transparency and reliablity. People spent hours of their lives farming this weapon. People spend their well earned Photon Spheres to make it stronger. People spend their own money, Donation Tickets, to increase its accuracy. I root for staff to make a wise choice.


That said, this is the last cent I throw on this topic. I really hope we don't get disappointed with the outcome.

 

7 hours ago, toxic said:

ive played hucl for 5 years and huct for 3 years and still feel more comfortable with hucl but for me that would be the buff she needed for single dps weapon. huct still stronger in solo runs without a high lvl sd cause PR just breaks anything lol

I see your point, but at least on my mind, Serene Swan and Psycho Ravens are two completely different weapons, different types, different ranges, different purposes and so on. It is almost the same thing as comparing Heaven Striker to Mille Faucilles, for example. Weapons of different parts will never replace each other, and I feel that's the case here.

Edited by Noob Saibot
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Posted (edited)

@Noob Saibot Eggblaster mk2 is handgun range not rifle range. Even tho it has rifle animation. Also Centurion battle doesnt affect either Last swan or Serene swan at all, in fact the speed is the same with or without battle units equiped. But at the same time they also dont get affected by the slow motion status effect like in that MOTV room. 

Please dont nerf the gun :( but if you do just make it female only and keep it the same. However if you do that, would it be posible to water down Master raven's atp and combo unlock it for males? They really need a consistent and reliable ranged weapon.

Real talk about HUcast + SS....the problem isnt the weapon but rather HUcast himself. On all the other HUs the weapon is fine as it is or even mediocre since on the others it needs good SD to work (specially on HUney) the problem here is that ANYTHING HUcast uses that relies mainly on the character's base atp is gona be good on him while being garbage on everyone else. This includes stuff like Crush cannon, charge/zerk mechguns, charge sup gun/water gun, Charge diska/DoB and just generally weapons with low atp. The diference with this kind of weapons between him and the others is huge and this is because the diference between his atp and the others is also huge. HUmar has the second highest atp and its still 230ish atp behind his while the other two are 330 for hucasy and 400ish for huney. Imo its time to stop comparing the others so much to him and stop balancing stuff so much around HUcast only while ignoring all the other HUs cause then youre gona end up with one class with decent gear and 3 with garbage. Further cementing him as the best HU. So if you nerf this gun the ones that are really gona suffer are the other HUs not him. Specially HUmar, even if no self-respecting decent human being plays him, he needed a good long range weapon, as its one of the things his equipment was missing.

Just focus on what each class does best and its role instead of trying to play every class the same way cause no matter how hard you try the other classes will always fall behind hucast in terms of dmg. But not with the things THEY can do. Like demons and support for the fleshies and HUcasy being able to use specials more reliably. Stop trying to play every character the same way and approach your role differently with each class.

So yeah...im against the nerf uwu

Edited by Kraven202
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What would be the point of limiting the class to Hu only?  Isn’t Hu using it kind of what started this whole discussion?  Does it really matter that FOnewearl can use it?

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Even if I'm not suppose to give my own opinion (as a well-known Minecrafter would say)...
Here is another two cents to add to this (very HOT 🔥🔥🔥yeo.png.8c1f7f999eb3c8f614d5d8a3d3a3c994.png) topic
so after reading all the previous pages, my new suggestion is;

Serene Swan
160 ATP (grinders included)
Grinder: +80
37 ATA
170 ATA required
Special: Devil
Animation: Handgun
12 shots (3x4)
Range: Handgun
All classes

The idea would be to still cover a lot of situations with the handgun-range and 160 final ATP to shine with Buffs or PB with this 12 shots weapon.
And if I want to kill my target faster, I will have to reach the mechgun-range to access to one of the several powerful mechs available, which makes sense to me since the risk is higher on closer range.
 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -


By the way on a sidenote and drama aside; I also wanted to thanks all the players that provied their ideas in a constructive way so far. I's a proof that the community cares about what is happening to Ultima. I refuse to be part of a dying server @mudkipzjm! owo

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7 minutes ago, Lipelis said:

Serene Swan
160 ATP (grinders included)

Maybe i forgot it and I'm a little unsure, but 1 grinder point should be 2ATP if i remember correctly, i would just leave it like it is since it's not a broken item
only thing would be a restriction on which character should be able to use it (I'm for hucl and racl at least so maybe female only)

but yeah here everyone got different meanings :P

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@toxic 1 grinder is indeed 2 ATP!

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Thanks everyone we have enough inputs now, I think we can get to a decision with all this. I will close the topic, so we don't get in to circles here.

 

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Update in the changes;

Rifle range has been removed.

Class FO has been removed.

Hunter was removed by mistake and will be added back. (fixed)

Thanks.

 

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