Should Larva implement PSO2 style drops along with classic style?

[Trefleex]

If you guys want to have a system that doesn't favor people who solo, people who multi with others, or people who solo with multiple accounts, drops per player (dpp) isn't the thing you should be arguing for. The way to do that is with a multiple drops system(optional/opt-in); the rate of the item is proportionally decreased by the amount of players in the room, but when it does drop, it drops one for everybody i.e. instead of red ring being 1/57 with 1 player in room, it becomes 1/114 with 2 people, 1/171 with 3 people, or 1/228 with 4 people in the room, and when it drops, one of them drops for each person. Then it doesn't matter how you decide to play (solo, multi, solo w/ multiclient), it's always the same chance at item.

Agreed to most off this since multiple logging isnt going be removed so making dar lower when more peeps in party is bad idea and this whole plan isnt going work problem is multiple accounts log

Or there must come a rule that forbids doing multiple logs in pso2 dropstyle so u get warnings/ban for abusing it

Also lets say making all 4 people get all item same time is ganna get frustations when hunting stuff like pgf since when droprate is like 1/300 it get 1/1200 for a full party

Edited May 4, 2016 by Trefleex

[Midori]

@Saith

You are right that this new drop system won't solve the general problem of having an online game that favors solo over multiplayer, but it's a step in the right direction. Unless we also restrict or remove the ability to multi client, soloing with multiple accounts will still be best.

But you act like the current game has no problems. What is your reason for lying about how the game works and trying to somehow fool us into thinking the current game favors multiplayer over solo? You are totally wrong about that. The stuff you are saying about "stealing banners" makes no sense, so I don't even know how to respond to that. Maybe you don't understand how the drops are determined or how statistics work. You are trying really hard to come up with problems that don't even exist and it only shows your lack of understanding for PSO and math. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that it will be OPTIONAL. If there is a situation where using the classic style is better for people to find an item, you can still do that.

What this new drop system will do is make multiplayer better in a few ways. For one, we won't have to worry about racing to items, calling dibs or dealing with ninjas. Instead of all that bullshit, we can just work together and whatever drops for you is yours. There is no confusion or debate over who gets the item. The other improvement (depending on what the DARs end up being) is less of a punishment for playing with more people. If we go with the same DAR numbers as Ephinea, you will be roughly twice as likely to get an item with 4 players, compared to the current system. For the people who are going to play multiplayer anyway, this is a better system.

So while this won't solve the general problem of the game favoring solo over multiplayer, since most players don't multi client, it should have an overall positive effect on the game. If we really want to solve the problem, we would need to figure out solutions to the multi client problem at some point. In the meantime, we can at least play multiplayer and have it be decent, instead of terrible.

[dmoney1969]

I don't think y'all understand what it actually means.

The ephinea dar rates of 100%, 82%, 67%, and 54% have been thrown around a lot in this thread.

If you decide to solo with multiple accounts, then you get massively increased chances to find the drop.

1P: 100% base chance of drop

2P: 157.276% chance of drop

3P: 187.834% chance of drop

4P: 199.125% chance of drop

That system is terrible for encouraging people to play and work together; instead it does the opposite and causes other problems alongside it.

If you do want to play multi with other people and work together to help everyone get the drop, the group has a significantly larger chance to find items, but then you can have issues where the item drops in the same players instance twice, forcing them to steal the banner. Or if the items don't have a banner, it becomes incredibly easy to deceive the other players, pretending to come along and help them find a specific drop, and then simply keep the items for yourself. If a player wants to hunt a certain drop, but wants to leave their room open for other randoms to join in, if the others joining in aren't specifically helping them find that drop and want the chance to claim that same drop themselves, letting them join will only hurt the player's chances of finding the drop. On top of that, it discourages playing the more difficult quests that require players to work together and would normally be better for hunting. Instead, it encourages soloing with multiple accounts to massively increase your chance of getting a drop; it increases the solo chances by a large margin, as instead of just having the base drop chance but being forced to do an easier to solo, less rewarding run, they simply need to log multiple people and walk them into the drop room to have even more increased chances than before (before would require running your multiple clients individually on those easier to solo, less rewarding runs all at the same time, which requires having gear on all of your chars, keeping all your chars alive and actively attacking and moving between rooms, instead of just having to send all your chars into the same room; i.e. it's a lot easier to walk all 4 clients into the falz warp and have 3 of them stand there doing nothing while dead, as you kill the boss with the 4th client, before reviving them all and reaping the increased rr reward chance, than it is to try to kill 2 falz in 2 different games at the same time).

It hurts players not trying to work together towards a drop, it causes more issues for players that are trying to work together for a drop, it facilitates deception and ninja-ing and removes encouragement of communication, it discourages playing the difficult but more rewarding quests, and it massively rewards players who solo with mulitple accounts. It does not help players play together without being punished for it (if you aren't specifically working together, it only hurts your individual chances of getting a drop), and the other argument of ninja-ing becomes an actual real possiblity (ninja-ing is a complete non-issue in the current system right now, if anyone is stupid enough to try they never get away with it).

By every conceivable reason I can think of it's a terrible thing. It hurts people who want to solo, it hurts people that want to multi with others and just worry about themselves without actually working together, it slightly benefits but mostly hurts people who want to multi with others and work together, and it is insanely broken for people who want to solo with mutliple accounts. And all this fuss is because some people are not adult enough to play with others in a multiplayer focused game without whining that it's unfair because working together inherently means making compromises (just as it does in real life).

If you guys want to have a system that doesn't favor people who solo, people who multi with others, or people who solo with multiple accounts, drops per player (dpp) isn't the thing you should be arguing for. The way to do that is with a multiple drops system(optional/opt-in); the rate of the item is proportionally decreased by the amount of players in the room, but when it does drop, it drops one for everybody i.e. instead of red ring being 1/57 with 1 player in room, it becomes 1/114 with 2 people, 1/171 with 3 people, or 1/228 with 4 people in the room, and when it drops, one of them drops for each person. Then it doesn't matter how you decide to play (solo, multi, solo w/ multiclient), it's always the same chance at item.

Soly was already talking about limiting the amounts of clients to 2 well see I guess. I saw no difference from a classic room and a Pso2 style drop in terms of rares dropping. Even if it did benefit someone quad logging. what would that do? Flood the economy that we have now where Dark weapons are 600-1000dts? The PS02 system should be put in place and tweaked to however it fits here. Anyways Larva said enough with the Bullshit and he said 'If the drop system get in to place the DAR reduction is totally going to happen, just simple as if we don't; the entire party will have drop system 4x LOL. So no guys, this is not a server to play the easy way. Nor will be a drop system to obtain items easier, it will solely so you can play as a group and to stop worry for the ninja drop.

Ultima is not a high rates server it is a mid rates server and we will remain that way."

Edited May 4, 2016 by dmoney1969

[Midori]

Let me try better to explain how Saith has no idea what he is talking about. He is trying to trick us and that pisses me off.

Let's use Red Ring as an example and compare the current game to a game with the new optional drop system:

Currently, you can solo (doesn't matter how many accounts you use) and have a 100% DAR for RR. If you do 4 player, you basically have a 25% chance of RR because you are racing against the other players for it. With the current game, solo is 4x better than multiplayer.

After the new drop system is added, you can solo (with 4 accounts) and have about a 200% DAR for RR. If you do 4 player, you have roughly a 50% chance of RR. With the new system, solo is 4x better than multiplayer.

So you see, worst case scenario, things stay the same. However, if you look at the big picture, it would be better with the new system. For one, most players are not going to bother soloing with 4 clients because it's a pain in the ass. For most people, 4 player will only be about twice as bad as solo. Plus you have the large added benefit of not having to deal with fighting over the same rare item.

Math > Saith

Edited May 4, 2016 by Midori

[velociti]

Well to be honest it still depends on the magnitude you scale down the rare drop rate.

If you go in with 3 randoms in a ttf and you have a red ring scaled down to 1/228, that's a pretty bad rate. Even in happy hour its not 1/57 like soloing, but rather 1/76 (~1.32%). Assuming 10 minute runs of ttf w/ 4 people that's only 18 runs of ttf in a HH, a summation 23.7% of drop chance for your client to drop it. So 4 happy hours to get a red ring for yourself (and the 3 others) with 95ish% certainty. With 4 people totaled, its just a 90-100% chance of a RR dropping in the whole HH, and you are not guaranteed to take it, because 3 other people want it (since loot might be distributed evenly among long term players. If not, then you subjectively have a worse chance at getting rares to drop over time)

When you solo ttf 14 minutes you can do about 14-15 TTF's in a HH, where you get a 1/19 chance (5.27% chance) for a red ring.

Doing 14 ttf's can get you a 73.8% chance of RR to drop. With this information I would still do RR solo since I have a better drop rate and time is not mitigated as much.

Though if it took 25+ minutes for a ttf, multiplayer would be good, so you can see it favors mid gear players... somewhat.. but I would still vouch for a lesser downscale of the rare rate, its too harsh. Imagine a 1/1,000 for hunting lame's, v502's and v101's outside of HH.

Edited May 4, 2016 by velociti

[Midori]

Stark 1, I noticed you downvoted all of my recent posts here. Feel free to post and explain how I'm wrong.

[velociti]

Stark 1, I noticed you downvoted all of my recent posts here. Feel free to post and explain how I'm wrong.

(This is why I never liked "Le upboat" mentality)

Atleast there aren't masses of lurkers reading to up/downboat posts, I usually ignore these things. Votes don't (and shouldn't) affect quality of discussion between people.

[Lemon]

So basically what I'm getting from this discussion is that we should edit the client to crash when more than one copy are running. That seems to fix all the solo vs multi issues, as it removes the chance of someone taking advantage of having multiple accounts. And honestly, I see no reason to dual log accounts other than item transfer.

[Ricardo Gomes]

So basically what I'm getting from this discussion is that we should edit the client to crash when more than one copy are running. That seems to fix all the solo vs multi issues, as it removes the chance of someone taking advantage of having multiple accounts. And honestly, I see no reason to dual log accounts other than item transfer.

about dual, well, not only for transfers 0.o, on events, many experience players make dual to get the rares, specially in ttf until volt opt.

[Lemon]

about dual, well, not only for transfers 0.o, on events, many experience players make dual to get the rares, specially in ttf until volt opt.

I fail to see how this is a good thing for the game. Doesn't it kind of kill the economy since people are not buying things but hunting? Plus it doesn't support working together, which is pretty much the main problem here isn't it?

[solo guy]

my own personal thoughts on this is that dual logging for item transfers is fine but wouldn't be necessary if they finished the character change panel so you could load up a char then transfer it across to account needed with items. another use is to hunt things on another id with your stronger character or to give buffs to your stronger character making them stronger(looking at cast mainly) but ive managed to in a year get most event dropping ids upto a decent level and geared up (one set of gear changed to which character i play) so i dont need to do this. so anything above dual log is not really needed so why not block it in some way? or finish character change panel and upset alot of people and make it one client per pc. if someone wants to run 4 pcs then let them as im sure its a minority who would just find another way to do what they want anyway

[Ricardo Gomes]

LOL what? are you just saying that we should kill solo playing? and how can you buy items if no one is hunting?

first of all, you missing the point, many preffer play solo, some of them have family playing in the house, just a few examples, but maybe instead of a new drop system, larva and staff should remove all solo rooms so the economy survive.

second, economy is dead because of all that items that got removed from donate list, the reference point got lost in that moment.

instead of attaking solo/dual playing, you should look instead what mistakes was done and solve them, a new drop system will not fix economy, unless donate list got a reference so prices flutuate normally

Edited May 4, 2016 by Ricardo Gomes

[Fyrewolf5]

@Midori
I dislike being called a liar for stating my own opinion and backing it up with my reasoning, and dislike being told I can't do math by providing faulty logic as "proof". I'm not trying to trick anyone and I've been completely open with why I hold my opinion.

The idea of pso2 drops being optional doesn't mean much if it's so much higher chance than the other option that it's silly not to use it. Therefore, if you are working as a group to get all of people in that group a certain drop (and can't ignore doubling the chance to get item in dpp system with suggested dar), then if the 2nd or 3rd one happens drops for the same person as the first one, they would have to steal the banner for the person they were helping try to get one; that's what the stealing banner part means.

The idea that having drops per player solves issues of "racing to items, calling dibs or dealing with ninjas" and that "whatever drops for you is yours. There is no confusion or debate over who gets the item" misses the point; that doesn't encourage people to actually work together (and not just play together and pray for luck or abuse the system). It introduces new problems that not only does it make it harder for groups to work together, but it can easily be abused by individuals within a group, like for example pretending to help but secretly holding on to items with no banner anyway, while also still having higher chance to get item than they would solo. It discourages parties that are mixed between working together or working for themselves i.e. if 2 players are trying to help another player get something and they want to use the dpp for better drop chance, then allowing a 4th random player out for themselves to join in is detrimental. It discourages playing difficult quests and working as a group on a drop, when soloing with multi-client gets a significantly easier drop boost too(I gave example before of it being much easier to kill 1 falz with 3 dead multiclient chars in the room, than it would be to kill 2 falz in 2 different rooms at the same time; with other hunts that have multiple options, solo would also be more ideal than a 2p or 3p group trying to do one of the harder more rewarding quests, and even 4p group could instead do 4 solo hunts much easier with less stress than doing the team quests).

The logic that 4 people in a ttf are always "racing against the other players for [the red ring]" is a fallacy; they are often helping each other go for it, playing in a group eases up the difficulty and stress of the hunt, the level of gear needed, and the time it takes to do the hunt, as well as the players repaying the help in other ways and other hunts, not to mention the fact that if players are just going to work against each other they usually play in different rooms anyway.

Even by your own standards though, the situation is not made any better, but the chance to get the item to drop DOUBLES regardless of being in a group or soloing with multiple clients; as Larva said Ultima is a mid-rates server, not a high-rates server, and that would be exactly the kind of change that would turn it into a high-rates server.

Multi-clienting is not a problem in and of itself, and as explained earlier there are many reasons it needs to stay. If it was taken out then rip anyone that plays from dorms, rip anyone that wants to play at their friends house with their friend, rip anyone that plays with family, rip anyone that enjoys playing by themselves, etc. Even if multiclienting were for some reason taken out, the dpp system with suggested rate still doubles chance of items in 4P games which is a pretty huge boost to rates that the admin obviously doesn't want. That's why I showed that there can be systems where multi-clienting doesn't affect it at all. A multiple drops (optional/opt-in) system is a much better solution to the supposed issues imo, rate of items being dropped relative to monsters killed is always the same no matter how you play, no arguing over ninjas or banners or drop orders, and everyone gets equal chance, but still better to do multi games to make runs go easier and faster.

@velociti I don't think you understand exactly what I meant with how a multiple drops system works. With 4 people in the room the red ring rate would go down from 1/57 to 1/228, but when it hits 4 of them would drop, 1 for each person in the room. That would always equal the same amount of falz kills average for each red ring no matter how you chose to do runs, since although in a 4p room it would take average 4x longer to get the drop to hit, there would also be 4 red rings dropping when it happens. It would be something you only use when everyone in the room wants the drop and nobody actually wants to help the other people; since they can't decide what order drops would go because they can't be arsed to help after they get their own want satisfied, then everybody just gets it equally at same time. No matter how people do runs, it will be same average number of red rings dropping to number of falz kills, but multiplayer runs will still be easier and take less time to kill those falzs'.

[tru]

A multiple drops (optional/opt-in) system is a much better solution to the supposed issues imo, rate of items being dropped relative to monsters killed is always the same no matter how you play, no arguing over ninjas or banners or drop orders, and everyone gets equal chance, but still better to do multi games to make runs go easier and faster.

Can you elaborate some more on this multiple drops system? Would it be that your chances of finding a rare becoming easier with the more kills you get from the time the game is started? I'm not sure if that would really encourage multiplayer more. I'd like to hear more about this.

[dmoney1969]

I think Soly can only limit 2 clients. That would be fine imo, if someone want to play in your house there you go or u want to create a game with a different ID and play with another character there you go. You don't need to have 4-6 clients allowed here. I just want the PSo2 system in place. Whether its limiting down to 2 clients or doing something that Saith suggested in decreasing the drop rates and having 4 rares drop. Whatever Larva and admins decide with I'll be happy with.

Edited May 5, 2016 by dmoney1969