Character stat changes - input wanted

[kom]

Forces suck without key items (glide, p wand, etc). It's not like we're going to build those stats into forces and disable those items from the game. I don't see how adding more new items should be any different.

Wait till after Easter to complain. It will be our first class-specific items the server has gotten. This isn't a new idea. Even Sega does this (mother garb for fonewm, neis claw for hunewearl, zanba for male hunters... I could go on). Many weak points exist for specific classes. That's what we've been using events for (like adding a good hell gun for hunters last year).

Flat out changing stats will always cause debates. Read back to see the backlash when we locked l&k38. That was just an item. Imagine the endless rage if we boosted ata for one class.

You are completely off track with this I'm sorry. I'm not saying my way is the only way (even if it sounds that way I know) and I hate to disagree with you so much because you are one of the nicer people around but everything you said is greatly flawed:

• Of course certain items will fill gaps and greatly improve your play, as long as they are available and hopefully not the only single option then it's not a problem. I'm talking about balance here, if all characters can use those then they will all be equally weak without it, and equally strong with it. They should be balanced in both cases. A hunter is poor without a battle unit just like a force is poor without decent weapon. Your theory involves locking say a Hunewearl to one EVENT ONLY, character only item, so that it can maintain a balance with the other characters in the game. It's not the same as saying battle unit should be built in because every hunter needs one to be viable.
• Sega hasn't done what you are proposing, no reputable game company would by choice, items to fix large imbalance has always been a band aid fix. Once upon a time Blizzard fucked with its itemisation an incredible amount to try and move away from locking classes to specific items to be viable. Those items you listed are choices, bonuses, perks, whatever you want to call it. They are not required to be used to maintain balance, in fact I've never seen anyone using Nei's Claw or Zanba. Does Hunewearl feel underpowered because the players don't have Nei's Claw equipped? No. Would they feel underpowered without some uber hunewearl only stat booster item? Yes.
• So last year there was a discussion that the hunter class lacked a viable Hell option? Much like say fomar lacks ATA? You are saying these 2 are the same sort of imbalance? OK lets assume they are like you say. How many hunters now use Asteron Striker? Almost zero, only a handful exist and they might not even belong a hunter. So in other words in the past you tried to use an EVENT ONLY item to fix an issue you deemed worth fixing, a year on the fix has failed miserably. To me there is a difference between filling a gap in a characters play set and changing the balance of a character, I don't consider the changes I listed to be filling a gap, they are to alter the balance.
• Look at Hylian and Red ring. Once upon a time there was a whole selection of shields to pick from, they came with bonus to weapons (Gratia) or stat boost (Kasami Bracer), world of variety and choice. Now for some characters its either use Red Ring or miss enough to shit you up the wall. I'm only guessing here because I wasn't around, but it looks like Hylian was created to boost forces, in a few months time they will be insanely expensive and rare, if forces are weak without it then all the new players aren't gonna have fun thanks to this approach.
• There's a big difference between LK38 and this. Firstly that was a nerf to an overused item that people might have put time and money into, I'm proposing a buff to underused characters. On what world will the backlash be even remotely similar? People like to complain but not if they are given something, if a strong character is buffed and a weak one forgotten, then people will complain, but here we are talking about weaker underused characters. I agree any changes shouldn't displace any character from the "top spot" i.e. hucast of hunters. That's why I posted here for lots of input to make sure people have some opinion on any changes. To be honest here, you have no idea what reaction would be the Easter items because are all based solely on your opinion rather than the community.
• In my scenario a new player joins the server, picks Fomar, he can has no idea there was a stat change once upon a time, all he knows are the stats he has and whatever is listed on the forums. He levels up and enjoys being able to hit things, not a complaint in the world.
• In your scenario the Fomar can't be effective at physical combat, but there exists an item that has 40 ATA and 300 HP which is his only hope, it costs about 400 PD because there are only 3 left on the server, you can bet your ass that guy will be complaining.

Edited March 29, 2014 by kom

[kom]

Wow that was longer than I thought, had to edit the first point to make more sense too in case you are replying lol and I managed to put in 3x "once upon a time" haha...

Edited March 29, 2014 by kom

[kajex]

When I've talked about character boosts, everyone bitches if their favorite class doesn't get the same boost. I can't suggest 20 ata boost to fomar and not fomarl. Then if we boost those two, it's not fair to fonewearl and fonewm. Then hunters have no better ata than forces and expect a boost. It's a pandora's box I don't want to open. The game doesn't require all the new items to be fun. Also you're assuming everything is only for events. I never implied that all new items can't drop outside of events.

You do have a point with the over use of Hylian shield. It was never meant to have such large tech boosts, but after a glitch, we decided to leave it with higher than the original planned boosts. That was to keep players happy. Obviously not everyone can be happy when a change is made.

[kom]

When I've talked about character boosts, everyone bitches if their favorite class doesn't get the same boost. I can't suggest 20 ata boost to fomar and not fomarl. Then if we boost those two, it's not fair to fonewearl and fonewm. Then hunters have no better ata than forces and expect a boost. It's a pandora's box I don't want to open. The game doesn't require all the new items to be fun. Also you're assuming everything is only for events. I never implied that all new items can't drop outside of events.

You do have a point with the over use of Hylian shield. It was never meant to have such large tech boosts, but after a glitch, we decided to leave it with higher than the original planned boosts. That was to keep players happy. Obviously not everyone can be happy when a change is made.

The thing is no ones really complained so far, everyone seems like it's reasonable to give Fomar and Fomarl 200 ATA. The newm's already have almost 20 ATA on the other two and they aren't even considered hybrid play style. However Fomar and Fomarl have always been the hybrid utilities when it comes to weapons. No one would argue Hunewearl couldn't have more ATA, no one would argue Hucaseal needs more ATA, that just leaves Humar/Hucast which has been discussed by several players in this thread. Pandora's box was pretty much opened here and if this is all that was inside then there was never anything to worry about.

If characters are balanced through class specific items that are not event only then I would still call it sloppy because of all previous mentioned points, but at least its a small step in the right direction.

Edited March 29, 2014 by kom

[kajex]

What you're asking for could happen eventually. The theory was that we'd handle stat boosts and/or raising material limit caps through a prestige system. As you can see from previous posts in this thread, there's no official verdict on that yet but there has been a bit of new progress in prestige recently. Rest assured, everything in the upcoming event came from community feedback (except troll items lol). New items really are a band-aid, but they are a lot less risky than server-wide rollouts of global stat changes and still get the job done. Once there is a consensus on prestige, we can talk about minor server-wide character adjustments either with or without prestige.

Side note... Kroe's sweater was an event item larva created, and it used to be exclusive to the Christmas event. For over a year now, it has dropped year-round from Dorphon Eclair. That's why I was saying not all items stay in events. There still are a lot of enemies with no drops (vol opt, olga, death gunner to name a few) where we could put some of our past event items. For example, I'm still pushing to have Virus Shield: Vol Opt as a year-round very hard Vol Opt drop. It would be great for newer players.

• Sega hasn't done what you are proposing, no reputable game company would by choice, items to fix large imbalance has always been a band aid fix. Once upon a time Blizzard fucked with its itemisation an incredible amount to try and move away from locking classes to specific items to be viable.

*cough* Mother Garb.

Edited March 29, 2014 by kajex

[kom]

What you're asking for could happen eventually. The theory was that we'd handle stat boosts and/or raising material limit caps through a prestige system. As you can see from previous posts in this thread, there's no official verdict on that yet but there has been a bit of new progress in prestige recently. Rest assured, everything in the upcoming event came from community feedback (except troll items lol). New items really are a band-aid, but they are a lot less risky than server-wide rollouts of global stat changes and still get the job done. Once there is a consensus on prestige, we can talk about minor server-wide character adjustments either with or without prestige.

I wasn't asking for anything, I was going to do it all myself then pass it on but if updating a few numbers is considered risky business and sweeping changes then no wonder nothings changed in 5 years lol. You keep talking about prestige like its in progress but who's actually working on coding it? Lee was pretty clear on the mat cap and max stats being hardcoded into the client, you can't change it based on the player and there is no one willing to code the alternatives. If someones working on it how did they not pick this up? Verdict done, move on, surely? Everyone on the server will have quit in the next few months and the next batch of people will come through, reoccurring cycle, if you and larva aren't open to the idea of real updates then it'll never end. By the time there is a "consensus" on prestige there will be no one left from this batch. New overpowered items and putting more monsters in TTF isn't enough to keep people interested long term. Things like the ??? bug are fixable, Elessa will probably fix it quicker than I can, but I mean if you open the door for people to help then they will, this seemed like a pretty simple thing to get started with, most of the stuff here is already talked about prior to this and needed.

Also if you'll use MG+ for a point then I'll use how well PR went down with female characters, think class specific items will go down a treat with everyone?

[Guido Palau]

im not agree with you kom, base stats shouldn't be touched, ultima is more unbalanced than regular psobb server, every character have a rol normally , you have weapons like psycho ravens, and ultima reaper on Hu and FO for example, i know is event weapon but why is usable for all character whit a low atp/ata requeriment, really... the most powerfull weapons are just obtainable on Events, and should be usable only for his respective classes, no one who plays ultima every day must wait like 6 month to finally (if you got friends and luck) find a pgf... so hunters items should be usuable for HU characters, u can't create a new sword with 1k atp and 600 atp requeriment... is ridiculous... fonewearl can do more melee damage than a hunewearl... is better if 3 seals is dropeable and psycho wand more easy to find whiout sadly hour, look this.... 1/1000 mil lyli... lol 1/900 del lily... glide divide 1/1900, Dark Bridge unobtainable, Rambling May unobtainable, i think is better if add event items on normal drops and create new middle class items, no need to be always the more powerful... help the new FO characters a lot...

note: I have like 3 month playing ultima and i dont have any important event item, that sucks... if i dont donate i can get anything usefull item for my characters, im getting really boring of this server now...

[nerdmastax]

I gotta agree with Kom here, as a FOnewearl I feel very left out. Seems like every other day theres another hucast with a pgf shouting DONT HEAL ME PLZ!!! I was playing RT on ultimate the other day and noticing close to 5k dps from other players on the dragon, so I throw a foie with twinkle star, what do I get? 300 dps, and a drain on tp, and that slow cast time is with a v101 and v801, two "good" items that don't do that good. As for hylian shield and pwand, I've never gotten one, and will NEVER have enough pd's to get one. I can't get through the first rooms solo on ultimae without getting one shot. Yet somehow a level 20 hucast can out dps me almost 10-1. How am i supposed to farm for pds if i cant play ultimate solo? Do I have to start a character I care nothing about? Or am i just expected to throw hundreds of dollars into the game like armando and colorodo? Because neither is an option for me. half the time kajex where is everyone? The lobby. If nobodys in a lobby they are in a locked room. Where are the fo's 90% of the time? The lobby. Is it because the lobby is cool? No. It's because forces are useless unless an RT comes along, or someone needs an id. As a force I would like to be able to play the game one day on ultimate. Especially considering that a long time ago before things were screwed up I could. Forces were intended to be strong high dps characters that can take care of their team, not just a s/d j/z resta/anti/reverser machine, forces have 11 techs that are useless, completely useless.

If your goal is to alienate every force on the server then you are doing a fantastic job... But the community here is strong, you could have a great server, if you just allow it to be great. But no...... ignore everything and all the hard time everyone put into telling you why ultimas broken, just throw some more 100+ pd items in that mess up the balance further, better yet just disable the forces 11 other techs at lvl 90 (oh wait you already did)

[MASSBLADE]

im not agree with you kom, base stats shouldn't be touched, ultima is more unbalanced than regular psobb server, every character have a rol normally , you have weapons like psycho ravens, and ultima reaper on Hu and FO for example, i know is event weapon but why is usable for all character whit a low atp/ata requeriment, really... the most powerfull weapons are just obtainable on Events, and should be usable only for his respective classes, no one who plays ultima every day must wait like 6 month to finally (if you got friends and luck) find a pgf... so hunters items should be usuable for HU characters, u can't create a new sword with 1k atp and 600 atp requeriment... is ridiculous... fonewearl can do more melee damage than a hunewearl... is better if 3 seals is dropeable and psycho wand more easy to find whiout sadly hour, look this.... 1/1000 mil lyli... lol 1/900 del lily... glide divide 1/1900, Dark Bridge unobtainable, Rambling May unobtainable, i think is better if add event items on normal drops and create new middle class items, no need to be always the more powerful... help the new FO characters a lot...

note: I have like 3 month playing ultima and i dont have any important event item, that sucks... if i dont donate i can get anything usefull item for my characters, im getting really boring of this server now...

With this 1st point is what I was explaining in the 1st place ^^. everything i said back then shouldn't be tampered with but as for extras towards classes such as s/d and j/z towards RAmar/HUmar it will defeat the point of some other classes.

[Armando]

how about humar lvl 10 s/d and ramar lvl 10 zalure ;D?

[nerdmastax]

mass that stuff in your spoiler is why i don't like being a force on this server, just a fantastic example of how bad a fo is left out.

[kajex]

Rambling May unobtainable, i think is better if add event items on normal drops and create new middle class items, no need to be always the more powerful... help the new FO characters a lot...

Guido, Rambling May is obtainable year round... Go get one.

http://www.phantasystaronline.net/forum/index.php?/topic/11022-rambling-may-valentines-day/

nerdmastax, a good force can solo episode 4. The issue with forces in ultimate has more to do with enemy resistances in episode 2 and some episode 1 bosses than it has to do with character stats. Shambertin is incredibly boosted in episode 4, but a force can typically kill it faster than a ramarl. Force cannot solo many areas of episode 2 even at level 200 with the best gear. Lowering resistances (not def/evp) of enemies could be much a better solution than altering stats of characters.

Kom, I'm done responding to you in this topic. I'm willing to listen, but not if you don't cut the negativity. If you have solutions to bugs (like ???? bug), by all means contact a developer to fix them. Constantly raging about how bad the server sucks is not going to fix any problems. The bigger thing that will chase players away from the server is topics that constantly tell everyone how bad the server sucks. New players read these topics too. Tread lightly.

[nerdmastax]

well Kajex I'm not as deep into the games mechanics as some people are, but yes the resistances seem off, but with the damage cancel and such it seems like the odds are stacked against fo's. I noticed you only mentioned one boss that a fo can handle, and with the qualifier "typically faster"(than one class, I assume there are faster classes than ramarl). back in the day a group of 4 lvl 90 fo's could ttf ultimate, and yes it could still be done with super awesome expensive rare equipment, but it used to be manageable without it. If its just fixing resistances then I dunno why it hasn't been done yet, unless this is new news to the server.

[kajex]

I always fight for forces. I started out on the server as a fomar. Since I joined the server, there have been tons of new items and benefits for forces. Unlike what has been suggested in this thread, I see lots of newer players with these items (noted in parentheses)

• Blood Sword
• Hylian Shield (Tons of these exist. Pricey, but worth it. Many teams give these to their good forces for free if you make friends. Boost rafoie, razonde, and grants with gigantic boosts.)
• Kroe's Sweater (females, tons of these exist. They aren't expensive anymore. Boosts ata by 10.)
• Master Sword
• Psycho Bridge
• Stealth Sword (I still have a few. They sell for cheap like 10pds.)
• Ultima Reaper (Without hit, these are very affordable in trades. With hit, less expensive than most other items. 666 atp before grinding)
• Virus Shield: Volt Opt (Kom prices these at 5pds. I price them at 10-15. Boosts gi techs. Boosts ata by 10.)
• Units that are great for forces - Trap/Search, Wizard Resist, Noob/HP
• A few more items coming for forces in the Easter 2014 event

Additional boosts that were given to forces in May of 2012:

• Mother Grab+ - Equip-able by all FO Classes (previously fonewm only) Cuts TP usage in half.
• Three Seals - Boost 25% in all RA techniques
• Psycho Wand - Boost 45% all RA techniques
• Prophet Of Motav - Boos 25% all RA techniques
• Samurai Armor - New Stats DEF- 221 , EVP - 203. AND Boost RAbarta 30%
• Girasole - Change in stats ATP- 650 AND Grinder +20

To say that we are ignoring forces is not at all true. Very few things have been added for rangers. Most events and server updates are tailored to hunters and forces. Answering your question about resistances... No one has opened the discussion of resistances before, and I just started suggesting it. That frankly is the most logical solution to the force issue. It is far more likely to happen than stat changes.

Answering your question about bosses...

Bosses that are fine for forces without horrible difficulty:

• Dragon (episode 1)
• De Rol
• Barba Ray
• Shambertin/Kondrieu/St. Million

Bosses that are possible to solo, but are a bit harder:

• Dragon (episode 2)

Bosses that are virtually impossible on a force solo. It's these four bosses that I would sugest a tweak to resistances:

• Vol Opt (First form is easy. Second form is brutal.)
• Dark Falz
• Gal Gryphon
• Olga Flow

This is why I said curb the negativity. There has been a ton of progress for forces in the past two years. I'm open to suggestions, not endless bitching.

[Aiden Payne]

Alienate Forces?

Sounds to me like someone that got too attached to their first character and now your butt hurts cause you found out you can't match a HUcast in DPS. FO is a support class. The point of a FO is not to be powerful but to help out others. Either embrace it or change character. FO is already powerful considering they add an entire 1/3 of shifta AND zalure to the whole team. They can use slicer of fanatic and bringers which cut through everything reducing it to 1/4 hp. Freezing with rabarta is also a huge help. The lack of power makes play interesting and fun posing a chance for creative solutions which I find a very enjoyable change of pace. I have no interest in trying to spam techs which dont even combo. What is the point of standing still and peroidically pressing one button and watching a spell cast over and over? It's dull. There is also the problem of DMC. I agree that some boss resistances need a dramatic decrease, but who picks a FO for solo anyway? To enjoy playing FO you need to appreciate what they have to offer. As I always say if you wanna do lots of damage as a FO, what are you waiting for? Go make a HUcast

Edited June 27, 2014 by kajex