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Sir Rendlan
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On 3/5/2021 at 7:05 PM, Saber +7 said:

 

I am no expert in qedit and certainly could not do the things Shiida or Lemon or Ender or whoever have done. I do however feel like I know a good quest design when I see it.

You don't.

It's way harder to do even the slightest possible thing in Qedit, and there's a lot more to a well thought out quest than how the waves are spaced or the monster diversity. It's one of many ways the quest becomes unique.

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2 hours ago, Varista said:

You don't.

It's way harder to do even the slightest possible thing in Qedit, and there's a lot more to a well thought out quest than how the waves are spaced or the monster diversity. It's one of many ways the quest becomes unique.

Right... Not like I’ve played the majority of the quests on the game on nearly every meta from 25% battle with WBR to 110% battle speed down to the tee. This is a weird shot to take (not to mention late) when my style of play is essentially studying quests. 

Edit: After thinking more about this the "funnier" the claim is to me. I don't think there's many players that can even begin to compare to the amount of quest "knowledge" and overall feel for quests I have. It's not a slight to any player, but the fact is when I've sat and played most quests in a level that others simply haven't participated in I think it's fair to say not only is my input in relation to quest design can be relevant as well as accurate / knowledgeable. When you can find a hidden pool of players who have studied and executed thoughtful 100s of hours per quests (maybe even a collective 1000+ on MA1C) among dozens of quests across GameCube, Ultima, "Vanilla", and Schthack PSO then I will rest my case, but until then I think that claim is quite ridiculous.
 

My take has nothing to do with the difficultly of creation via qedit / phantasmal world. Let’s not pretend likes it’s literally an impossible task. With enough time most anyone can create whatever their imagination will allow. 
 

Ultimately difficulty of creation has nothing to do with the quality of the quest. 

Edited by Saber +7
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6 hours ago, Saber +7 said:

Right... Not like I’ve played the majority of the quests on the game on nearly every meta from 25% battle with WBR to 110% battle speed down to the tee. This is a weird shot to take (not to mention late) when my style of play is essentially studying quests. 

Edit: After thinking more about this the "funnier" the claim is to me. I don't think there's many players that can even begin to compare to the amount of quest "knowledge" and overall feel for quests I have. It's not a slight to any player, but the fact is when I've sat and played most quests in a level that others simply haven't participated in I think it's fair to say not only is my input in relation to quest design can be relevant as well as accurate / knowledgeable. When you can find a hidden pool of players who have studied and executed thoughtful 100s of hours per quests (maybe even a collective 1000+ on MA1C) among dozens of quests across GameCube, Ultima, "Vanilla", and Schthack PSO then I will rest my case, but until then I think that claim is quite ridiculous.
 

My take has nothing to do with the difficultly of creation via qedit / phantasmal world. Let’s not pretend likes it’s literally an impossible task. With enough time most anyone can create whatever their imagination will allow. 
 

Ultimately difficulty of creation has nothing to do with the quality of the quest. 

It's easy to sit around and say that you know all about what makes a good quest because you played the game a lot. Your quest record isn't exactly extraordinary and you make it seem like being able to play a quest dozens if not hundreds of times and over the course of that play time get good at the quest means that you have any right to judge what internally makes a good quest. You don't, and anybody that plays a quest enough will eventually become good at it. The ease of learning a quest or the ability to speedrun it does not equate the quest to being too simple, that's simply not the case. Eventually everybody will learn quests. If we judged all quests by that standard then no quest is creative, no quest is good, and no quest is challenging because eventually everybody will learn it down to a tee.

 

It's really easy to sit around and act like you know what you're talking about but you don't. We're not arguing what the best routes or tactics for speedruns are, we're discussing the internals of quest design something with all your 0 hours in Qedit and 0 quest releases is something I'm sure you can understand would seem frustrating to some one like Shiida who has thousands of hours put into the program, some pretentious speed runner telling her that her quest is lazy because spawns are all facing one single direction when there's not much else to do variance wise anyways is insulting. You are insulting the work people put in and you have no right to sit around and judge, considering, as I said, you have 0 experience with it. You're quite literally just a guy playing the quests. And I say this to anybody that takes this tactic. Have feedback, but dont insult people's hard work (and it is hard, go try using Qedit, it's a nightmare 99% of the time) because hurr durr I could spam DM during it, which is another point I'll make.

 

DM spam, DF spam, its all the same thing. Across all servers people will use what's best and its absolutely pointless to make comments about how other people play when its just the best option. If I was on Ephinea all the rangers are using charge arms. Its just charge arms spam. On Ultima its DM, or DF. It's just dark weapon spam. On Schthack the rangers just use Bragi or Annihilator. Its just Bragi or Annihilator spam. 0 point in arguing that, 0 point in complaining about it. All people will use whats best for them. Bringing it up as a point of interest to pin people down on quest design only sounds like: "People using the best stuff in your quest and succeeding makes your quest design lazy". 

 

That makes total sense.

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6 hours ago, Varista said:

It's easy to sit around and say that you know all about what makes a good quest because you played the game a lot. Your quest record isn't exactly extraordinary and you make it seem like being able to play a quest dozens if not hundreds of times and over the course of that play time get good at the quest means that you have any right to judge what internally makes a good quest. You don't, and anybody that plays a quest enough will eventually become good at it. The ease of learning a quest or the ability to speedrun it does not equate the quest to being too simple, that's simply not the case. Eventually everybody will learn quests. If we judged all quests by that standard then no quest is creative, no quest is good, and no quest is challenging because eventually everybody will learn it down to a tee.

Surely it's not extraordinary. I agree. This game mostly isn't hard, yet there's not many players that compare even within the scene. I think most players COULD climb to where I am if they wanted to. I really haven't talked about "internals" of quests because that's not what the question asks from the original post (from my perspective anyway) and that's not where I feel experienced. I personally don't care about the internals of a quest so long as it functions. That's just me as a player though. I don't think about the internals when evaluating quests because like I said it doesn't really have to impact the quality of the quest in relation to gameplay so long as it's not totally fucked. I also never said that a quest being speed-runnable is what made it good. My initial post pretty much only talks about the composition of the enemies because in my eyes that's the major contributing factor to the quality of the quest. I didn't really touch much about qedit / pw and still won't because that's not whatam talking about.

Also in regards to that last bit... I don't know how much you play public games, but if you did play them frequently across literally any server you'd know the majority of players don't know even their favorite quests down to the tee and play silly relative to TA standards.

 

6 hours ago, Varista said:

It's really easy to sit around and act like you know what you're talking about but you don't. We're not arguing what the best routes or tactics for speedruns are, we're discussing the internals of quest design something with all your 0 hours in Qedit and 0 quest releases is something I'm sure you can understand would seem frustrating to some one like Shiida who has thousands of hours put into the program, some pretentious speed runner telling her that her quest is lazy because spawns are all facing one single direction when there's not much else to do variance wise anyways is insulting. You are insulting the work people put in and you have no right to sit around and judge, considering, as I said, you have 0 experience with it. You're quite literally just a guy playing the quests. And I say this to anybody that takes this tactic. Have feedback, but dont insult people's hard work (and it is hard, go try using Qedit, it's a nightmare 99% of the time) because hurr durr I could spam DM during it, which is another point I'll make.

I don't think most people are discussing quest internals here. I certainly am not and I think most players here are talking about the content inside the playable quest as I said before. In fact looking over the whole thread I think you're really the only person to interpret this as a discussion about the internals of the quest. I surely don't have any releases for quests. I never claimed to be a quest designer (as in my original post here lol), but to think I know nothing of qedit is silly. I've spent a fair share of time on it. I used to use it to study spawns and have made things for testing purposes until phantasmal world came out and now we use that mostly. 

I don't really have much else to say on this bit. Shiidas quest are not for me. She's not the only one though. There's other quests I don't like. Endless Nightmare #1 ( even relative to other forest quests. sega btw) is garbage, Max Attack S 1/4 are pretty bad (rika), PTS, Fragments of Memory, and some others. If you think that's insulting I don't know what to tell you. I don't think the spawns are fun. All user relative. I don't know where you get the "right to judge" from, but everyone is entitled to their opinions lol.

 

6 hours ago, Varista said:

DM spam, DF spam, its all the same thing. Across all servers people will use what's best and its absolutely pointless to make comments about how other people play when its just the best option. If I was on Ephinea all the rangers are using charge arms. Its just charge arms spam. On Ultima its DM, or DF. It's just dark weapon spam. On Schthack the rangers just use Bragi or Annihilator. Its just Bragi or Annihilator spam. 0 point in arguing that, 0 point in complaining about it. All people will use whats best for them. Bringing it up as a point of interest to pin people down on quest design only sounds like: "People using the best stuff in your quest and succeeding makes your quest design lazy". 

 

That makes total sense.

"Across all servers people will use what's best" I don't think you could be more wrong. I think TA pretty much proves what's actually "best" and it's very rare to see players outside of the scene perform that way on any server. Players use what's easiest typically (especially on Ultima where Dark Meteor is double buffed). You swap mid comment to "best" to "best for them" when that's almost always factually something different. Any quest that is cleared with mostly only one item will be lame to me. It doesn't matter if it's Dark Meteor or Dark Flow. I absolutely hate PW4 because for the most part it's just DF one thing after another after another floor to floor until the end. A good quest should have diversity in patterns that allow for multiple solutions. I think that all makes sense.

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/28/2021 at 10:21 PM, Saber +7 said:

This game mostly isn't hard.

Then why are Morfos buffs bad?

Seriously though, it's the attitude that comes across like you're shitting all over R-78s quests however unintended.

Surely if you don't like them, don't play them and create your own. At-least thought and effort was put into them for us all to enjoy and I personally do enjoy them.

If that means I have a sub-par elitist mind set about what makes a quests great, I'm cool with that.

Edited by Grantz
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