Regarding L&K38 Combat

[Ulevo]

Alright, so. I felt the need to make this post because the consensus that I have been seeing around here on the forums is kind of bothering me. I don't want to offend anyone I haven't already gotten to know, which is pretty much most of you, but I feel that there is an underlaying sense of inexperience here and an over exaggeration on how 'good' L&K38 Combat is.

The first problem I am seeing is that players here tend to believe that L&K38 > everything else. I don't know if the ATP values for L&K, Charge Vulcan, and Master Raven/Last Swan have been modified here, but on Schthack, myself (and every other good player) use all three in their inventory at any given time in mostly any quest. The reason is that all three of these weapons have completely different utilities and purposes, and don't outclass one another, but compliment each other and complete the options needed by the player.

First off, Charge Vulcan is going to be better than L&K38 almost all the time, provided that your Shifta level is high enough. On Schtserv at least, with a simple 30 Shifta from a FO, Charge Vulcan is enough to combo kill most grunts and a lot of larger monsters in a single combo. Zalure allows you to do the same on enemies you fall short on with just Shifta. Given the fact that the mechgun combo is faster than L&K38, it is always ideal to use this over L&K38 unless you're under certain circumstances.

The first of the circumstances being out of range. If you're a well adept player and know the quest spawns, you can usually stay within range of a monster as it spawns or before it spawns in order to kill with Charge Vulcan. However, there will be some cases where this isn't possible (Ep 4 spawns come to mind) and you need to use L&K because running to the enemy just to Charge Vulcan doesn't make sense.

The second circumstance is when you're in a prolonged fight; in other words, a boss fight. L&K38 does do more damage overtime, and since you won't be combo killing bosses, it only makes sense to use L&K instead (only on bosses with only one hitbox though, it won't be the efficient choice for every boss).

Master Raven/Last Swan are the other part of the equation. Now, from what I understand, neither of these are combo unlocked here, and there seems to be a fear of unlocking these because they'll be 'just as bad' as L&K38. I can't see how this fear is valid, but I'll continue. Master Raven is basically what Charge Vulcan is, only with better range and better frame rates, but with nowhere near the killing power. The bottom line though is that Master Raven/Last Swan are used for two purposes; combo kill monsters that even MR/LS with their low ATP can kill, like Ob Lily in caves, and as a clean up weapon.

There are circumstances where both Charge Vulcan and L&K38 are overkill in power, and you can just kill the monster with a simple MR/LS combo, and that is when those weapons are good to use because it means they'll get the job done faster. If all three can combo kill the same enemy, then they will be the faster choice because they just have quicker start up and cool down animations. Obviously if you have to start up more than one combo with MR/LS, Charge Vulcan or perhaps L&K will be better. And as for clean up, there will be circumstances where you want to combine the use of another weapon with MR/LS's utility. So say you Charge Vulcan an enemy, and it doesn't die. It would be much easier to pull out a MR/LS and do a NNN or a NH, or NN to finish it off then starting yet another laggy Charge Vulcan combo. Another example is when you use a slicer combo to kill off a group of enemies, but one of them is left alive (either due to the others receiving crits, one of the attacks missing, or the enemy being out of range for a duration of the combo). You would use that instance after the other enemies are down to pull out MR/LS and quickly 'clean up' that last enemy.

Also, they can trap shoot safely, which neither of those weapons can do, so that's worth putting on the table.

The problem that plagues MR/LS is that they have low ATP values, and against stronger enemies, they really lose their luster to L&K and Charge Vulcan. So honestly, they're not as good as I think people are fearing them to be.

Anyway, in short. You can assess whether or not you want to use any three of these weapons by following a simple flow chart plan.

When the enemy spawns (outside of it being a boss), assess the range. If the enemy is out of Master Raven/Last Swan/Charge Vulcan range, you automatically use L&K38. This for reasons I stated earlier will not arise often. In the event that the enemy is in Charge Vulcan/MR/LS range, you need to assess whether or not you can kill with those weapons. If you cannot kill it with a Charge Vulcan combo, but you can with an L&K combo, then use L&K38. Most of the time, Charge Vulcan will be the better choice, or a combination of Charge Vulcan + MR/LS. In the event that the monster is really weak, like with Ob Lily, or a weakened Zu after Gifoie stacks, then using just Master Raven/Last Swan on the enemy is the best choice.

I realize that the monster stats have been modified on this server, so the issue of EVP being high and not being able to use Charge Vulcan special as effectively may present an issue, but I am only speculating that, and from what I have heard from teammates it is still perfectly usable. You also have ATA raised on characters, and have implemented Kroe's Sweater with increased ATA values.

Anyway, I thought I would give my two cents on this because I feel as though opinions on L&K38 (and the other two) may be colored here because of the lack of a competitive environment (and thus a drive to use what is efficient at any given time, and thus what is better to use, not what is necessarily easiest). I think it is important to understand the appropriate definition of 'overpowered' when applied to a circumstance. In this circumstance, I do not see L&K38 Combat as being overpowered because there are alternatives that not only do things that L&K38 cannot do, but will often do what L&K38 Combat does better in most, but not all situations.

I don't know what kind of responses I should expect from this, but I welcome them. Thanks for taking the time to read this through.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Ulevo

[King Ra]

soooooooo your saying lk38 should keep combo?

[Ulevo]

soooooooo your saying lk38 should keep combo?

If the arguments proposed to not keeping the combo unlock are the ones I addressed within the opening post, and not others in which I may have missed and am not aware of, then yes.

[Ulevo]

Another point that I would like to make as a pre-emptive strike to replies that may follow, another argument that I have seen made here is that 'Hunters are hunters, who use close range combat, and should not be given Ranger weapons, otherwise it defeats the purpose of a Ranger, because they have higher ATP, et cetera'.

On Schthack, Rangers are better than Hunters (barring maybe HUcast, which is debatable prior to Rainbow release), and they have combo unlock Master Raven/Last Swan, combo unlock L&K38, and Rangers don't have a suped up Dark Meteor. While the three weapons discussed in my opening post are ranged weapons, they do not give a Hunter the utility of a ranger. Hunters cannot point in any given direction of a room and combo kill said entire room with a Charge Arm/Dark Meteor combo. If a Hunter wants to be effective within groups, they need to rely on that mutlihit weapons available to them, which mostly constitutes Diska of Braveman and Dark Flow. Diska of Braveman can't hit more than 4 enemies if my memory is working properly, and Dark Flow is close range (outside of special, which has risks and is hard to use unless the spawn is perfectly lined up). So allowing Hunters to gun down enemies from afar one by one when Rangers have access to Needles and Shots, among other things, will not replace the need or use for a Ranger. Rangers will probably still always be better.

[dooby]

umm...you mean you wanna borrow mine?

[Vazerty]

charge vulcan ..... is no rare weapon, is no fun

and last swan have combo

master raven have too high atp for unlock combo

A good thing is make a guld milla (with atp little increase) for Hunter and yasminkov9000 with special for ranger

LK38 must have the combo for me but should not be the best gun

we already discussed about it here, and each has a different opinion

[Ulevo]

charge vulcan ..... is no rare weapon, is no fun

and last swan have combo

master raven have too high atp for unlock combo

A good thing is make a guld milla (with atp little increase) for Hunter and yasminkov9000 with special for ranger

LK38 must have the combo for me but should not be the best gun

we already discussed about it here, and each has a different opinion

Well...Charge Vulcan being 'not fun' because it's not a rare weapon is subjective. It's not an objective fact, so I don't think that should be argued.

Master Raven has near the same ATP as L&K38, and far lower damage per second than both Charge Vulcan and L&K38 Combat.

[Larva]

Well all your PSO techniques seams interesting here. BUT , LK should remain with combolocked due of what we already experiense.

everyroom everyone with LK and only LK. is just to depressing.

[Ulevo]

Well all your PSO techniques seams interesting here. BUT , LK should remain with combolocked due of what we already experiense.

everyroom everyone with LK and only LK. is just to depressing.

Then maybe it is a question of availability, and not how good L&K38 is? I am not surprised that many people would use it, because it is a strong weapon at any level, regardless of Shifta, and it is accurate because you can NHH rather than NSS, so it is an ideal weapon of choice on low level characters and for players that don't have very good gear. But on a player that's well equipped, and knows how to handle mobs, it's hardly the weapon of choice most of the time.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Ulevo

[NOFEAR]

Then maybe it is a question of availability, and not how good L&K38 is? I am not surprised that many people would use it, because it is a strong weapon at any level, regardless of Shifta, and it is accurate because you can NHH rather than NSS, so it is an ideal weapon of choice on low level characters and for players that don't have very good gear. But on a player that's well equipped, and knows how to handle mobs, it's hardly the weapon of choice most of the time.

No matter if its availability or how good is, the problem is the same. Its an easy weapon to obtain, equippable for all clases and OVERPOWERED. So no combo avoid one of this 3.

[kajex]

Then maybe it is a question of availability, and not how good L&K38 is? I am not surprised that many people would use it, because it is a strong weapon at any level, regardless of Shifta, and it is accurate because you can NHH rather than NSS, so it is an ideal weapon of choice on low level characters and for players that don't have very good gear. But on a player that's well equipped, and knows how to handle mobs, it's hardly the weapon of choice most of the time.

Yeah that was the big problem. In December, X-Type and I played endlessly during a happy hour and got 10+ of them in just a couple of hours. The drop rate should not have been so high if the weapon was combo unlocked. If another decent mechgun was as easy to obtain in December, we would be complaining about its overuse today.

[Larva]

Yeah that was the big problem. In December, X-Type and I played endlessly during a happy hour and got 10+ of them in just a couple of hours. The drop rate should not have been so high if the weapon was combo unlocked. If another decent mechgun was as easy to obtain in December, we would be complaining about its overuse today.

yeah that may be one of the issues. and completly my fault.

not much we can do now. im sorry

[Ulevo]

No matter if its availability or how good is, the problem is the same. Its an easy weapon to obtain, equippable for all clases and OVERPOWERED. So no combo avoid one of this 3.

If you believe this weapon is overpowered, I would like to hear your explanation as to why you believe it is overpowered, and what you define as 'overpowered' in PSO.

I think it's only the polite thing to do. After all, I did put a lot of effort in to posting the points I did. It would be nice to see you address them.

[fatboy]

lk38 combat is a great weapon to have. even if the gun can combo still couldnt match up to other great weapon like df, dm, excal. what can i really complain about the real decision its up to larva. to weather end this good or bad.