Ideas to improve the server - feel free to post!

[drdingus]

 you could always just, idk, not buy it then? farm it during event? go without? ive been here about 18 months and have never donated or used a dark weapon. if everyone had access to every item at all times then there would be no reason to look forward to events. sure the prices on em are insane, but you dont go to the Lamborghini dealership and tell them to lower their prices, youd go on craigslist and get a used Cadillac, just as badass in an affordable price range. the only reason the prices are that high is because people pay them. there are legit comparable items abound on this server, not to mention we all play for free. not looking for any rebuttals or drama just throwin in my perspective. play the game to have fun my dudes <3  

[O9B066]

3 hours ago, Night said:

well the reason why some people tried/try to sell PR at 100 dts is cause before valentines 2017 you had to start with a master raven 0'd and that meant you had to use 8*35% = 8*15dts= 120dts or ~10Photon spheres to max it just wait and the price will drop next event even more so DW haha

 

and humans are getting more and more lazy so thats why they pay that much for an item, others abuse that.. but thats humanity actually. id say stop complaining and hunt your pgf on your own. it will cost you some time and it will be annoying but if you really go for it it will drop! im one of the dudes who actually helped to raise the pgf price and i have to say it was dumb and id never do it again. ill never donate 1c since i know it is possible to easiely get everything with just hard work and the faith in dw!

Top paragraph I get but your foolish to start with a blank item and max it that's your foolishness as I did with my IF. It's not even about a Pgf dm is sweet but I'm good with my IF going to make another max for my other ra. You don't need a dark weapon. As I said I don't like Hu so DF is out the equation and PB is a horrible waste of one. It's just alot of stuff in general I see here that's seriously 3-15 times more here then other places. Ultima is home so I'm stuck dealing with it.

 

Its not complaining. It's suggestion something, everyone's thinks people saying stuff is a complaint if that's true then most of this forum is complaints. So no one says anything about anything ever life goes to hell.

 

@drdingus I'm going without a dw I've donated more then enough where I could of baught one. But instead I have 10 bomb ass weapons and several sweet armor and shields. As I said I do play but the prices are ridiculous so no one says shit they just keep going yeah that's what is needed. Like you guys don't want any suggestions I guess it's a communist server then sorry I don't sit like a biotch and keep quiet like a mouse when things get ridiculous. You do have excellent points as most have on this subject. 

 

So, if i should say anything I should just dump my stuff here and move to another server where people can say stuff and the economy is better. Pretty good idea and seeming like a real possibly tbh. If you realize how many people just left here obviously there's reasons and why not look at what so this great server doesn't lose more good people like it has. I love ultima @Soly is one of the best authority figures here and serverous too. All their work will be in vein. Shiva took all his or her stuff out of the forums and moved it to his new home. Thelionmorlion left gave all his gear away free cuz the economy sucks. Orgo left jade misecrombre and the list goes on why? Ask them economy reasons.

Edited October 10, 2017 by O9B066

[Ragol99]

3 hours ago, Night said:

well the reason why some people tried/try to sell PR at 100 dts is cause before valentines 2017 you had to start with a master raven 0'd and that meant you had to use 8*35% = 8*15dts= 120dts or ~10Photon spheres to max it just wait and the price will drop next event even more so DW haha

 

and humans are getting more and more lazy so thats why they pay that much for an item, others abuse that.. but thats humanity actually. id say stop complaining and hunt your pgf on your own. it will cost you some time and it will be annoying but if you really go for it it will drop! im one of the dudes who actually helped to raise the pgf price and i have to say it was dumb and id never do it again. ill never donate 1c since i know it is possible to easiely get everything with just hard work and the faith in dw!

Yeah everything can be hunted here if your willing to put the effort and time in. Although PGF might take several years just to get one to drop even if you hunt 18 hours a day.

[O9B066]

2 minutes ago, Ragol99 said:

Yeah everything can be hunted here if your willing to put the effort and time in. Although PGF might take several years just to get one to drop even if you hunt 18 hours a day.

Yeah and I have a life and at Christmas time there's family things going on etc I don't have time then. But this isn't just about that thing but seeing a couple things going for 350 or more lately sparked it. 

[Ragol99]

4 minutes ago, O9B066 said:

Yeah and I have a life and at Christmas time there's family things going on etc I don't have time then. But this isn't just about that thing but seeing a couple things going for 350 or more lately sparked it. 

Yeah I understand how it goes. Some of my friends won't even touch pso due to the ludicrous drop rates, and level 200 grinding time. The unfortunate truth is people are going to price items at X amount. Unless set price limits are in place to regulate this to prevent it. Anyone has the right to price an item how they see fit. If someone doesn't like the price they don't have to buy it. I don't agree with many of the prices here myself. Having a group or even a majority stand up and attempt to alter prices is good. However this will not change the fact that some people will always overprice. I don't think anything personally should cost more then $75 in a 16+ year old game. The reason why they should Set fixed cap prices for the most expensive items. This will in effect then make NOTHING go for more then said item(s) capped price limit. No amount of people unless EVERYONE was in on it will alter prices entirely for the better.

[Soly]

@O9B066 Shiva took down his stuff from other forums too, he was working with magictrick since long ago (apparently) some people moved there because they wanted to be part of their staff and so on.

Again, I don't think the economy is the main reason for most of those.

1 minute ago, Ragol99 said:

Unless set price limits are in place to regulate this to prevent it.

But we can't even enforce that... I mean, we definitely are not going to turn into a dictatorship and ban people because they asked for a higher price than what we set.
Also the fact that it would add even more work onto us which really people should learn and handle themselves (like Saith was saying before), also (some) people will disagree with whatever we do.

[Ragol99]

Just now, Soly said:

@O9B066 Shiva took down his stuff from other forums too, he was working with magictrick since long ago (apparently) some people moved there because they wanted to be part of their staff and so on.

Again, I don't think the economy is the main reason for most of those.

But we can't even enforce that... I mean, we definitely are not going to turn into a dictatorship and ban people because they asked for a higher price than what we set.
Also the fact that it would add even more work onto us which really people should learn and handle themselves (like Saith was saying before), also (some) people will disagree with whatever we do.

Yeah its a slippery slope here for sure. Only idea that comes to mind for me isn't realistic either. Adding everything to the donations list. IF the most expensive or highly sought after items are $100 max each to donate for. Nobody will be going to pay anything more then $99 for anything elsewhere I'd imagine. Why would you shell out $150 for an item from another player that you can donate for $100 to get. This would drop prices for that said item to $90-95 max from other players. In turn every item would drop below the highest value items prices from trade deals then. I don't believe this is the correct approach either. Nor do I feel its fair to give the GMs more work they do tons as is here. Especially you Soly always hard at work making things happen for the better here. 

[Soly]

The best way should be with better drops but even as you said, ludicrous rates.
Many people seem to want 2/1 or something. ¯\_ツ_/¯.

But we have been through this kind of discussion already so yeah...

[Ragol99]

14 minutes ago, Soly said:

The best way should be with better drops but even as you said, ludicrous rates.
Many people seem to want 2/1 or something. ¯\_ツ_/¯.

But we have been through this kind of discussion already so yeah...

Yeah better rates in theory should contribute to a better economy overtime. I've noticed that's been an ongoing goal of Ultima. Each event here ever since valentines I've noticed more and more event items drop globally. I know you did a controlled flood for Sonic team armor last year.  Supposedly many more pgfs dropped then ever before as well. I look at the price of a lindcray when I first started you couldn't really touch it. Now people have some sitting in shops now waiting to be sold. Everyone before wanted them and Slicers of vengeance same goes for those. I will never complain about rates just keep making it more optimal to hunt. I hunt 10-18 hour days during events I'm not working that are active. I will never personally be deterred by drop rates. Its a work in progress for the economy. Economy is still broken but it beats the economy when I first started here last October for sure.

*edit I've also noticed people suggesting to increase the duration of the 2 events with the most coveted items. Anniversary, and Christmas ones. Maybe make both an entire month long event each? I don't know if this would help the economy or not. It might give people more time to hunt, or time to hunt when they might otherwise have none. I for one will be hunting regardless nonstop with high hopes. No big deal if nothing comes of it I'll just keep at it each year. This is how everyone should do it. Hunt and never give up just keep at it year after year if you want said items badly enough. One day they will drop for the people who put this much effort in.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Ragol99

[Soly]

Hopefully this Last 3 events of the year will be even better.

[Fyrewolf5]

2 hours ago, Ragol99 said:

Yeah better rates in theory should contribute to a better economy overtime. I've noticed that's been an ongoing goal of Ultima. Each event here ever since valentines I've noticed more and more event items drop globally. I know you did a controlled flood for Sonic team armor last year.  Supposedly many more pgfs dropped then ever before as well. I look at the price of a lindcray when I first started you couldn't really touch it. Now people have some sitting in shops now waiting to be sold. Everyone before wanted them and Slicers of vengeance same goes for those. I will never complain about rates just keep making it more optimal to hunt. I hunt 10-18 hour days during events I'm not working that are active. I will never personally be deterred by drop rates. Its a work in progress for the economy. Economy is still broken but it beats the economy when I first started here last October for sure.

*edit I've also noticed people suggesting to increase the duration of the 2 events with the most coveted items. Anniversary, and Christmas ones. Maybe make both an entire month long event each? I don't know if this would help the economy or not. It might give people more time to hunt, or time to hunt when they might otherwise have none. I for one will be hunting regardless nonstop with high hopes. No big deal if nothing comes of it I'll just keep at it each year. This is how everyone should do it. Hunt and never give up just keep at it year after year if you want said items badly enough. One day they will drop for the people who put this much effort in.

In theory and in practice are not the same. Like I've said, we've had items before where we make the rates better and triple the amount on the server, and *some* people will still try to argue the price should be even higher than it was before they dropped. It has nothing to do with rates, it has to do with a lax community that lets it get that way. When I joined pgf was 50dt for a basic one. What happened was people artificially tried to keep telling people higher and higher prices and other people would believe them. Not enough voices would speak up to counter it.

Once upon a time, there was a person that purposely ovrepaid to get a proof of sonic team. They stated they were doing so and knew how much it was worth, and paid about 4x as much as it was just to get it. And then overnight people tried to triple the value of proof of sonic team. Nothing had changed about the item to make it have more value, people just got $$ eyes and got greedy. They all wanted to get in on the 'let's rip off some poor sucker' action. Other times we've made event item rate much easier, and we get hundreds to drop in the event, and people try to ask for even higher prices than what it was before. SJS had it's rate slashed in less than half; before then I had seen like 2 banners ever, and since then I have seen like 2 dozen banners. SJS was worth about 30dt when I joined the server, and people tried to argue for it to go higher than that after we made the drop more than twice as easy and many many more dropped.

And you know what? A similar thing happened with dark weapons, were people artificially started saying higher prices without real basis, and then people started believing them. I saw the price go in shoutbox from 100 to 200 to 350 to 500 in a matter of hours; this wasn't a gradual thing, I saw it happen in real time in a single day, but everyone again got $$ eyes and wanted to get in on it themselves. But it's not a real price. It was just a bunch of dumbasses being greedy and artificially inflating things. But if people continue to throw out a number like that, eventually other people will believe it. I actually watch the actual trades though, and I don't see these things get thrown around for that much money usually (though they are rarely traded, and often it ends up being maxed ones), and people don't really buy them at that amount, it's certainly not the average price. They don't really get sold much, and not enough voices ever speak up, so when some dumbass tries to claim it's that much people don't see anything to the contrary. So they continue to believe such ludicrous claims about the price because there are not enough voices speaking up against it.

You want to 'fix' the economy? Then stop saying pgf is 350dts. And when someone says it is, then tell them "No, you are being ridiculous, it's only worth X". And multiple people have to do this, and visibly show everyone else that doesn't really know anything that the claim is not undisputed, that it's not accepted, that it's not accurate. Changing rates doesn't counter greed. Forced top-down action doesn't counter greed. The economy is a product of the community and you are all responsible for the economy yourselves; you can't just sit passively and just watch, because greed always plays in active role in trying to change things. You have to take an active role too to counter it. The community has to actually has to speak up against greed. If you want change, you have to make change. That's the only way it actually works.

[O9B066]

4 hours ago, Fyrewolf5 said:

. Not enough voices would speak up to counter it.

 

You can't, rule 6 remember?

[Kikori]

11 hours ago, Fyrewolf5 said:

Changing rates doesn't counter greed. Forced top-down action doesn't counter greed. The economy is a product of the community and you are all responsible for the economy yourselves; you can't just sit passively and just watch, because greed always plays in active role in trying to change things. You have to take an active role too to counter it. The community has to actually has to speak up against greed. If you want change, you have to make change. That's the only way it actually works.

It takes a strong person to stand up for something like that. Unfortunately, in an economy's case, it also means taking a stronger person to do without what they want while standing up for it. The action is always harder than the word. For better or worse, I'm okay with mediocrity because fun trumps pixels, but I do have a few thoughts and want to voice them.

When I first played alongside CannaBeast in my first days, he told me a bit of the complications behind the economy when I asked him the conversion rate between PD and PT. I'm no marketeer or savvy merchant by any means, but when $1 can be four quarters when dealing with a direct trade but three gumballs, costing a quarter apiece, a money system is broken. I don't remember the exact conversion, but he told me very different values for PD:DT depending on if it was in goods or direct exchanges.
Idea 1: Remove this discrepancy, if it exists, by solidifying the exchange rates of currency items.
This could come with an idea of turning Donation Tickets into an actual, tangible item in the game. Instead of using donation tickets on the site as a measure, make a yellow, orange, white, bubblegum pink item box made just for tickets that allows people to directly exchange currency for currency in-game. Perhaps even a quest that allows an NPC to convert one way or the other, which would be an absolutely unbiased way to convert and set the metric. I have no clue what the rate is or should be, but I'll bet there are many more experienced marketeers around who could come up with numbers to take a good, solid average of.

Since then, I've heard a fair few tales of some items being "made" exceptionally rare because a few spiteful figures bought up the goods and proceeded to cut their ties from the server entirely. Particularly true of the Dark Meteor / Dark Flow pair, as I understood it. If a server like this is able to keep track at any time of what someone has on them at the time of deletion, or if a character has not been logged into in x amount of time...
Idea 2: Find a way to recirculate the valuables removed from the server by such grief tactics.
This would likely come with some sort of revision in the terms of service that includes a note about a character being considered abandoned after a duration, and to leave a note with a GM to flag the character to be preserved for extra time until a check-in / renewal date. Re-circulation could be as easy as a periodic auction, as subtle as putting something into the drop table of an event, or as blatant as a GM-hosted in-game event like guessing a room's password. Or, hell, community vote again. Give people the power to decide if someone really deserves that $65 Wedding Dress.

Unfortunately, neither of these is an assurance that people will play fair or get along. Greedy people will greed what they can, because their pixels matter. And I'll admit even I like it when my pixels have the right numbers. Everyone does. It's hard to please everyone with something, but when the idea is that too few people control too much wealth and too many people are left behind with no way to balance a three-digit donation to a game into their personal finances is the norm, it's an easy bet which side is worth pleasing. People who farm fair and square and sell fair and square exist, sure. But I know I'd rather place my faith in 90% of the community enjoying at least a 1/256 chance at, as an example, a Centurion/Arms any time of the year. I only managed to help a guy get one single Centurion/Power during the event, but I know it'd be useful to have another out of the blue, even if it takes 1/1024 Eclairs to get it. And it may just be me, but some of these event weapons I'm hearing about that are years old... Well, let's just say Runescape has demonstrated for all online games that a limited number of items dropping in a short amount of time and becoming trophy items or measures of wealth is a bad idea.
Idea 3: Allow old event drops and rare items to be obtainable, even if at "impossible" odds.
Here's a hint: when you run out of trees because you cut too many down, you learn to sew seeds and make trees grow again. Even if it takes patience. Hell, playing the Gamecube solo on my Pinkal FOnewearl I somehow got a Red AND Yellow Merge. Entirely solo. 1/6501, 1/5516 chances for the barriers alone, folks. The section ID cards are anywhere from 1/18000 to 1/40000. And currently the Heavenly series is a freakin' 5/16 across the board with the right ID and monster; only someone out for that one last pixel bank bump up could say a 1/1000 drop chance would break the chance to market things properly.

[Lemon]

I know how we can drop pgf prices; combo lock DF and DM.

[Soly]

@Kikori your first idea, I don't know if we'd like to do something like that, in the end I think it wouldn't be too different from how it is now.

The second one doesn't seem good (to me at least) in the very least, telling people that their items will be auctioned/given away if they don't play would turn down many people, definitely.

The last one tho, we have always kept those event items for the events themselves but like the talks we (staff) have had for PGF and other stuff, we could probably put everything (not at once) somewhere for a chance to get.