What do we need?

[jespence]

This topic is exactly what was on my mind recently and I’m glad you brought it up;  I personally saw the “boom-bust” after Easter season ended, and I have noticed there is almost no incentive to do CCA runs “off-season” and that makes things much harder for newer players to get levels; I wish Gal could drop something better to incentivize CCA runs to help newer players get their levels, I just don’t know exactly what

 

[assface]

i think the best thing we can do is just help new players be friendly and give him a few gear to those that need a little help and let them join our teams, and eventually would ve cool if the admins include some new stuff to the game like new quest, new units new weps new mags, new armor new shields, pretty much all.

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

[Clappy]

1 hour ago, Saber +7 said:

While it can be cool to push the limits of what is possible within a quest Ultima has a lot of quests that are simply too much monster count wise. This ruins hunt variety. Ephinea attempts to keep their quests in check with Sega quests monster count wise to some degree so that people aren't spamming only one quest that's too broken. I had never played or at least don't remember playing Intelligent Defense System until some time earlier this year. The quest is "cool" in that it's definitely very different from some of the more modest custom quests and Sega quests, but it's monster count makes it silly. There's no reason to ever hunt Baranz anywhere else. It pretty much insures that you get whatever a Baranz may be dropping while also ruining other quests for the Baranz hunt. There's more examples of this.

There's actually a decent way around this. Have a set of weekly quests that get DAR/RDR Boosts to incentivize different quest hunting. Would also be a great alternative to HH.

[Clappy]

4 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

This server unfortunately is seemingly dying.

 

The server is realistically only active during events, more specifically in Decemberish time of the year.

 

This server had a lot of people on a few years back. So what do we need to do? What can we do?

 

Ideas to improve the server has been a post around here for some time. A long while. But a lot of those idk if they have been implemented.

 

New players on the server the most I see them last is 1-2 weeks.

 

Partially what I may believe in is that those who do still play only play in small groups and outright ignore others, that's not very welcoming in my opinion. I also find it hard to come on and play because I see 4-5 rooms locked doing a quest by themselves as well.

 

It's kinda sad, I find Ultima to be a "home" and now it just feels dead.

 

So what can we do as the community to help? Where can we bring the activity?

 

I have a few ideas and I've spoken about these ideas with some individuals before, however I want to ask the community.

 

What does Ultima need to be what it was?

There's a pattern that I've also noticed that most certainly helped drop player count these past few years. The release of NA PSO2 and PSU Clementine. The exact dates those both dropped, specifically PSO2, there was a pretty big tank in PSOBB server pop across the board. We'll most certainly put it to the test on June 9th, when NGS launches.

[Clappy]

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

The server is realistically only active during events, more specifically in Decemberish time of the year.

There's multiple reasons for this. For starters, that's when the most OP drop of the year happens. When many people who think that one item is their ticket for being the only way to actually accomplish anything on the server due to enemy buffs, or their ticket to sell and buy all the gear they need as the price of that one item is absolutely stupid, but also understandable. Also, event drops are really the only exclusives in the game that just completely outclass vanilla weapons (for the most part) so people ofc, will hop on to farm for them so that they can (yet again) be capable of farming buffed enemies. So it makes sense people hop on at these times of the year for a make-a-wish.

 

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

This server had a lot of people on a few years back. So what do we need to do? What can we do?

This one's pretty simple I feel. People got bored. They more than likely feel like they've farmed everything already. It also doesn't help everytime people log in, every damn room is locked. Don't worry, they'll be back.. eventually.

 

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

Ideas to improve the server has been a post around here for some time. A long while. But a lot of those idk if they have been implemented.

There are so many good ideas in that topic, however Soly is a one man army, what can you expect him to do honestly.

Hire Development/Staff, ez clap

 

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

New players on the server the most I see them last is 1-2 weeks.

 

And again, we're back to the buffed enemies. Imagine, you start up Ultima, you hop in, you play a little and then suddenly you get power leveled like someone injected you with with the PSO's most powerful steroids. You make it to level 100+ but then you quickly realize, you haven't fed your mag in god knows how long, and the only items you've managed to acquire was a DB saber and that guy who inserted 100kg of sugar in your veins suddenly vanishes. Now, you try ultimate on your own for the first time and can't even hit the enemy, and then just get blasted by a Bartle. You shamelessly have to keep asking people for help just so you can complete dragon on ultimate mode.
 

TL:DR: Bartle too stronk, finna get whacked 

 

(It's primarily a joke) I know that only ep2 Ultimate mobs are buffed.

 

And you need to let the low levels learn the mechanics of the game and enjoy the lower levels before you just fingerblast them into ultimate mode with no gear.

 

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

Partially what I may believe in is that those who do still play only play in small groups and outright ignore others, that's not very welcoming in my opinion. I also find it hard to come on and play because I see 4-5 rooms locked doing a quest by themselves as well.

Yup, hard agree.

 

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

It's kinda sad, I find Ultima to be a "home" and now it just feels dead.

I kinda disagree here. It doesn't feel dead to me, it just feels like it could be more alive. As long as Ultima still has this amazing community, I personally don't think it will die anytime soon.

 

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

So what can we do as the community to help? Where can we bring the activity?

Well, we can start by adding an actual development team instead of just throwing Soly at everything. Like here Soly, just do almost all the coding and development for a 20 year old game while maintaining an actual life. Maybe then will all the server ideas get implemented. Ofc, after everything that's broken gets fixed first *cough* DMC

16 hours ago, Sir Rendlan said:

What does Ultima need to be what it was?

What it really needs is for @777 and @Prosock to stop farting everywhere, like jeez, you guys fuckin stimk.

 

Aaaand not as many locked games and no DMC and a shit ton of love.

 

That wraps that up for me

Edited June 2, 2021 by Clappy

[777]

The server population is in decline for many reasons, I believe the most pertinent are:
 

•Loss of interest during off-time when there's no live event.

•The staff is unwilling to make any changes or listen to the community.

•PSO2 siphoned away many players when it was released last year — PSO2NGS is about to release this month and be a redux of that.

Possible solutions:

•More mini-events; Mio's mini-event, hit events, forum mini-events like the one from summer 2018, or even staff-sponsored Duja-style mini-events with a winnable prize would be cool. (Staff members: if you're unwilling to conduct these events, perhaps we need new staff members that are willing to do so. )
•Rotating 5x exp and green names. Maybe something like a designated 5x exp or green names weekend would help to keep things fresh (especially when there's no live event).
•I'm a major proponent for HHs happening more often — it's a simple solution to consistently drive up user traffic. It's an ez win in almost every way imaginable.
•I've seen staff members say that we don't need any more new weapons added to Ultima.. Ok, understandable. But what about units/frames/barriers?

[Clappy]

15 minutes ago, 777 said:

The server population is in decline for many reasons, I believe the most pertinent are:
 

•Loss of interest during off-time when there's no live event.

•The staff is unwilling to make any changes or listen to the community.

•PSO2 siphoned away many players when it was released last year — PSO2NGS is about to release this month and be a redux of that.

Possible solutions:

•More mini-events; Mio's mini-event, hit events, forum mini-events like the one from summer 2018, or even staff-sponsored Duja-style mini-events with a winnable prize would be cool. (Staff members: if you're unwilling to conduct these events, perhaps we need new staff members that are willing to do so. )
•Rotating 5x exp and green names. Maybe something like a designated 5x exp or green names weekend would help to keep things fresh (especially when there's no live event).
•I'm a major proponent for HHs happening more often — it's a simple solution to consistently drive up user traffic. It's an ez win in almost every way imaginable.
•I've seen staff members say that we don't need any more new weapons added to Ultima.. Ok, understandable. But what about units/frames/barriers?

Ah, this is basically the best TL:DR to my comment. Also I love the green name every weekend, that's great motivation for people to play on the weekends, including seasoned players. As for HH, I don't think it needs to happen more often, it just needs scheduling. I feel like HH twice a day, every other day would be great. Once for the states, and again for the east globe players. I also stand-by the mini events. Attractive to new players, and veterans alike. Also, hit events would be fantastic so that new players can upgrade their gear without having to obtain DT's, which is a ridiculously hard thing to do when you're new.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Clappy

[777]

1 hour ago, Clappy said:

Ah, this is basically the best TL:DR to my comment. Also I love the green name every weekend, that's great motivation for people to play on the weekends, including seasoned players. As for HH, I don't think it needs to happen more often, it just needs scheduling. I feel like HH twice a day, every other day would be great. Once for the states, and again for the east globe players. I also stand-by the mini events. Attractive to new players, and veterans alike. Also, hit events would be fantastic so that new players can upgrade their gear without having to obtain DT's, which is a ridiculously hard thing to do when you're new.

I know that HH is kinda a controversial subject, I just feel that it's under-utilized or maybe not used to it's full potential. But yeah, something like a 'loose' schedule or a revamp — HH certainly gets me to log in when I wouldn't have otherwise.

The main point that I would like to emphasize in conjunction with my original post; with the advent of PSO2NGS, Ultima will be left in the dust if it doesn't adapt.

Also; I miss you bb 😭

Edited June 2, 2021 by 777

[Grantz]

4 hours ago, Saber +7 said:

While it can be cool to push the limits of what is possible within a quest Ultima has a lot of quests that are simply too much monster count wise. This ruins hunt variety.

Do you ever miss an opportunity to bash the GMs (more specifically @R-78) or us as a community yet you play here or at the very least post/chat box moaning/being superior about us all the time? That’s not good for new players to see either, you know, with the green name acting like an elitist who doesn’t value the player base or even the GMs.. 🙄

 

 

As for what could improve people playing here, I don’t think the buffs are keeping people away. I will agree that during event downtime there is less incentive to play. I personally like levelling up a new character so random x5 exp etc would defiantly make me play more between events and I feel this shouldn’t be event only.

 

Sadly Larva also isn’t very active so relies on Soly and R-78 to actually do things like this and they have lives too outside of ultima.

 

Generally 5x exp/green names be nice and so would more mini events, stuff like hit for PDs, a few event items dropping for a week or two. Say something like STA (may be too op but as an example) dropping the opposite time of the year it normally does for a very limited time at harder drop rates.

Like some Xmas drops in July after event for a week at reduced rates.

 

It is an old game though and I personally will always return here as everyone is so welcoming and generally a nice bunch. It’s hard to keep a game so old so relevant.

 

2 hours ago, 777 said:

•More mini-events; Mio's mini-event, hit events, forum mini-events like the one from summer 2018, or even staff-sponsored Duja-style mini-events with a winnable prize would be cool. (Staff members: if you're unwilling to conduct these events, perhaps we need new staff members that are willing to do so. )
•Rotating 5x exp and green names.

Beat me to it, great minds think alike 

Also need more onions, whales and booty pants @Kotta

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Grantz

[Ricardo Gomes]

for me, ultima just lost when they remove major items from donation list, thats why many new players after a short time quit, since you cant do much if you are short in money and luck on drops.

On others ultima stuff, i think its still pretty cool as expected from an old game, Soly and R-78 still try to improve what they can. i cant compare to others servers since i have only played here.

i used to be very kind to new players and help them as much i can, but in last, most of them just want big stuff at start, otherwise they will be rude. because of that, must of time i play alone, or only with team.

not to mention the super players who don't miss an opportunity to show that they are better and that the rest are crap, as I've seen in some cases, ask players to leave the room because they don't have top weapons or don't know much well what to do in each moment of the game.

 

 

[Gurei]

Alrighty, considering that I myself am pretty new person here on the server, I could maybe at least provide my point of view for all of ya pros on how being nub on this server feels alike. I read most of the posts here, and skimmed through others, so I won't beat the same dead horse over again like all the peeps done here before me, but let me at least condense all the stuff in form of bullet points what were/are the biggest gripe I have with the server:

 

- Buffed enemies - while I understand it is made so to balance game because of the custom gear Ultima have (and buffs to dark weapons). Being blasted by Ultimate enemies everywhere just when you exit very hard is incredibly disheartening, and really builds up this frustration of "I cannot actually progress until I can join some veteran party, because this is ridiculous".

 

Hell, even right now after few months of playing I have problems to do content with other players that are not "geared properly", i.e. actually have some hit % on weapons which is practically mandatory for ultimate at this point for anyone other than Ranger (not ep2 Ultimate bullshit tier ofc). And also how exactly new players can obtain any new decent gear if they won't be able to finish content by themselves? At this point waiting for a big and stronk person to carry You is like the only option, and seing how lots of (advanced) players are from US, there is a handful of situation where I can play with them and actually still get carried somewhere because I can't do shit with anyone else, so personally for me it it was and still really is very annoying situation.

 

My perfect ideal solution would be to leave ultimate as it was, without buffed enemies (so at least newer players can actually try and build up their gear in decent enviroment) and create another instance of difficulty named whatever, like "Over Ultimate" or "Ultimate 2" where You keep mobs with current buffs AND provide bigger drop rate from mobs (than it actually is, maybe like 2x, while HH will retain its 3x multiplier) well because...

 

- DROP RATE SUCKS - I can be ditched and ignored about this because "I'm a new player and I'm supposed to struggle to get my gear, don't expect anything to just fall into your hands lol". Yeah, I'm gonna go with no, not only some of the gear have like literal 0.001% (or less) percentage of dropping, most (if not all when it comes to weapons) require a hit % for them to be actually useful (again, due to buffs) so that further increase the RNG layers for anyone to get actually meaningful. While I understand that just handing out weapons to players without efort is ill-advised, and surely will make them feel "bored" quickly, come the fuck on! There were tons and tons of instances where I had to sacrifice sleep, playing at 3AM (CEST) at night (because apparently that's the majority when HH happen, but that's a whole different topic) an get absolutely nothing another HH I played 5th time IN A ROW. How fast do you expect person to get burned out when he has absolutely nothing when it comes to gear, and still won't get anything with a DAMN x3 MULTIPLIER. I need a carrot on that stick, and with only stick left behind, I can as while shove it up my ass at this point and call it "fun".

 

Like, it's not even funny that 80% of my current gear and firepower is plainly sponsored or given away by other players, without those I would probably be crying in ditch somewhere.

 

And please don't defend PSO drop rate, because in-game tons of player commented that it is hot garbage, so don't try score internet points and just say the same sentence here where everyone else can see it.

 

- Happy Hours - I can't say anything bad about it tbh, because the damn vanilla drop rate conditioned me to want and have HH anytime I can. But the random factor of those instances is really frustrating, and makes it hard to actually take part in HH themselves. By checking the HH chart for the events (especially easter, valentines felt way more balanced) it really made it hard for anyone else than US to take part in of most of them, only the last week of event felt incredibly generous with the timing for EU players (CEST time myself) and lots of ACTUALLY NEW PLAYERS I was hanging out with, voiced their frustration how hard for them is to take part in HH which usually took place after midnight or even later. Why those cannot be scheduled automatically, or at least recieve prior information or chart for APPROXIMATE HH's during whole month of event?

 

While everybody knows HH brings more players to the server, and that is a fact, but it does also create a HH effect of a different sort :"Why bother playing with garbo vanilla drop rates if we can just wait for HH, *logs out* ". Well that's nothing new, and lot of you peeps know that, so moving on... 

 

- Economy - I'm gonna sum it up all in one section, but basically let me ask you a question "How does actually a new player can buy/sell stuff on the server where there aren't many (or at all) new players".

 

Like imagine: most of You have all the stuff You need, what exactly a new player which have no luck nor gear to tackle ultimate difficulty with any form of drops that may be worth, can offer to sell to veterans like You? Also custom gear that Ultima has basically rendered all the vanilla gear that we could sell to any other player completely useless and meaningless (lest some single exceptions) so one less way to get any kind pd's.

 

There is a guide from @jdhenry124 about grinding for some of the mats and/or goodies that other people don't want to waste their time for, but If I'm gonna be honest with You - that really haven't got me real far, well, maybe except having my bank full of mats and grinders which actually don't seem to be needed by anyone. I had to try to improvise with my income (and still have to, because RNG is a total penis) and considering how much DT's are mandatory for any kind of decent gear transaction, I had to whip out my $ and donate for the server, because sadly, I wouldn't imagine getting anywhere without those.

 

- Gameplay (balance issues?) - not a main issue, but a annoying one and I won't elaborate any more than it was already done in different topics - Rangers reign supreme, while hunters and force need some love, k thx bye. Maybe I like space wizards, and hate the fact that level of investment required for them (and hunters) are way over the top compared to Rangers (inb4 "Forces are ez, just buff and stay in corner n00b" or "how is that real, hahaha, just glide divine and do your job support slut"). Event items for Forces are good, but I need to wait half a year to get those, or whip another dose of $ to buy them for DT's :"L

 

 

- DMC - nuff said, being reprimended time and time again to not deal (pitful) damage so I won't cancel out the big boi numbers. Thanks, that's what I need after I login into game - to NOT play it.

 

That's the stuff that's on top of my head, there are some other inconveniences, but it's the community that is great, and it's the only reason why I even actually play this even now. I only have big_sad.png is the fact that lots of You live in different timezones and it's hard for me to play with y'all consistently, but it's been a blast so far, and not because the game is fun, but because You guys are.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Gurei

[R-78]

Kinda want to reply to everything that's in there but I would still be at it in several hours.

 

There seems to still be a confusion about the buffs.

The only enemies that are buffed all year round on Ultima are Episode II monsters and bosses (Ultimate only).

So if one is saying Ultima sucks as it's impossible to deal with Forest's Bartles on ultimate because of the buff, then they're just being delusional or looking for false excuses.

 

With Ultima all custom OP gear and character stats limits increase, the game would be super boring and not challenging at all. Like imagine playing on Very hard with your level 200 character.

The only thing I agree with anti-buffers is that high EVP is dumb. There was a straight "+25%" applied to episode II monsters stats so the ones who were already hard to hit got an even bigger EVP buff hence even harder to hit, which doesn't make sense to me and I wish I could fix that.

 

My quests are "spammy" yeah, but if you think deep about it:

- Harmony of Despair: monster count is high AND YET, Simulator 2.0 is much better if you are looking for Dark Bringers, Path to Salvation is better if you need Delsabers or Del-Ds, Endless Nighmare 4 for Indi Belras, then Dark Gunners count is ridiculously low...

- Intelligence Defense Systems: okay there are a lot of Baranzes but you must have a team or I really doubt the troubles you get in last rooms will be worth the shot. So if you have a solid team, sure IDS outclasses other quests for Baranz count, but if you are solo, you'll prefer running something else such as Mines Offensive or Lost Soul Blade.

- Tower of Dreams: 78 Epsilons in the quest such wow so broken... Considering you can do this efficiently with a good team. This took me 135 minutes to solo. Compared to LHB's 20 Epsilons in 20 minutes, is it worth it? I doubt so.

Basically, harder quests are more rewarding.

Can't expect a 4P team to run and have fun in some quest that has literally 3 monsters per spawn.

 

The EXP x5, I understand some like it and is attractive to new people but... It reduces the game durability, like you get lvl 200 super fast is the least entertaining way (farming CCA non stop) then no longer feel the hype of grinding levels when you're farming.

A friend of mine totally quit this game because he did nothing but CCA exp x5 until level 200, his gear didn't follow his level progression, he felt super weak compared to other 200's he met, and couldn't enjoy the game anymore.

So no, definitely not going to give Gal gryphon an all year round ubber drop in addition to this, sorry.

 

More HH, not sure about this.

The more common it gets, the more you get used to it and the less you'll even bother logging into the game when it's on or off.

So far most rely way too much on it already, like very few people have been hunting big items out of HH.

And it's right to do that since drop rate x3 is a huge boost.

However, one thing for sure is that all timezones HHs would have saved us quite a few players in Asia. Now I barely see any japanese player in the game.

I've received PMs from Shanghai players telling how they could never get any HH at all, and as soon as I tried to make HH for them, I get to see complaints about how "GM maek HH wen no one is onlin wtff so stupeed".

 

I don't know if Ultima is dying or not but the player count is for sure anything but stable.

What can be done about it? Not much, because PSO is getting old and whatever happens, there will be people who like and people who dislike the changes.

I often hear the problem comes from a lack of new items content then how can one explain Ephinea's popularity when they use nothing but Vanilla content?

I'm not saying here that we can't improve, but just saying that it is impossible to bring Ultima to the 200+ player count glorious time of many years ago. Most who left just wanted to play brand new games, just like it was stated here with PSO2 and PSU.

 

PD Hit event, no. At least not with PDs.

On a server where you can farm stacks of PDs in no time, and also considering a few of us have thousands of PDs in our banks, this event basically sounds like "Free hit for veterans".

Actually if there was a hit addition limit per person (like everyone can only add up to 100 hit total during the event) I would totally be down for it since it would help newbies a lot and not make an even bigger gap with the rich players, but such thing is like impossible to track.

Eitherway I've been thinking hard and found another way to do Hit event but need Larva's approval on this (like everything else actually) that would give everyone the same chances at maxing their gear. Can't promise anything but I wish my mini-event idea sees the light someday.

 

[Grantz]

1 hour ago, R-78 said:

The only thing I agree with anti-buffers is that high EVP is dumb. There was a straight "+25%" applied to episode II monsters stats so the ones who were already hard to hit got an even bigger EVP buff hence even harder to hit, which doesn't make sense to me and I wish I could fix that.

Could this be something Soly could fix with Larva’s approval?

As for 5x exp, I think we all meant the random weekend here and there of it and no drops added to gal. Not all year round as then it detracts from having it on during events if it’s just 24/7. You can also lower experience if you really wish to with a command 

If 5x exp and greens were on prior to events I think it’d stop this scenario:

When levelling a new character and an event is on you feel torn between hunting or levelling. (Except PoST or Hylian) but personally I like to TTF ultima to level for a change of pace from CCA and even some of your quests as 5x exp from all those mobs adds up and you can hunt too. Though the case of, should I go hunt with people or spam CCA to get all chars maxed during events is a thing (for me atleast with like 8 characters and likely another 4 soon) especially if you have limited time to play. I kind of feel the exp and green names should be separate to events, or activated before them by just a little.

 

Event timing is also everywhere but I understand this because Larva isn’t always active and it isn’t as simple as pressing a button to turn it on, but actual set dates for events would be nice and sticking to them. (Looking at you Easter event and maybe even valentines too this year?)

Edited June 2, 2021 by Grantz

[wade1212]

 

48 minutes ago, R-78 said:

 

I often hear the problem comes from a lack of new items content then how can one explain Ephinea's popularity when they use nothing but Vanilla content?

 

 

 

You are right, so many things to reply to so I will just try to make one point.

Ephinea isn't popular because new content, its popular for its vanilla experience and incentives.  Each of the 4 PSO servers that started within the last 3 or 4 years all have incentives to play.  Ultima literally has none.  Did you know that on Ephinea something can be proposed, then voted on by the community.  If the vote passes its then implemented.  Here is an example of one that passed https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/full-dressing-room-name-changes.6395/page-2 and one that failed https://www.pioneer2.net/community/threads/exp-curve-adjustment.8080/page-4.  Community involvement goes a long way to keeping people around.

Ephinea also uses the HBR (hunter boost road) and event milestones.  I wont go into all the specifics of both but they are basically incentives where the more you play, the more things you get. (i.e. exp boost, drop boosts, meseta and other items.)  Also Hardcore mode, sandbox mode, anguish levels (you can boost the enemy level by up to like 5000%), lucky day system.  

Its a vanilla PSO experience with modern day incentives and features.  The numbers have proven that the majority of new and old players want this over any other version of PSO.

 

So you ask, what do we need.  I'd say a complete overhaul of everything if you don't want to be left behind.  A relaunch with some advertising to attract new players.  Re branding if you will.

 

Side Note:  Saber 7 Wilson is right about the whole @ chatbox thing.  Same goes for the onion fart thing or whatever it is.  I dont agree with censoring anyone ever for anything, its just weird and makes me never wanna log in to the forum.

 

Maybe thats more than one point.

 

 

 

[Grantz]

I’m not sure why everyone is on about Ephinea? We aren’t trying to be vanilla at all.

1 hour ago, wade1212 said:

Its a vanilla PSO experience with modern day incentives and features.  The numbers have proven that the majority of new and old players want this over any other version of PSO.

 

 

I wouldn’t want vanilla exp rates and all original only weapons as I’ve done that with GameCube and sure many others feel the same, however if people do want that, then there is another server for that, so would be pointless cloning them, when both can offer something unique.

The voting system is a good idea but bare in mind R-78 literally did this weeks ago for the summer Morfos buffs (we had a poll) It could happen more often though for sure 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Grantz