Individual Drops (PSO2 Drop Style)

[Biza]

17 hours ago, Midori said:

@Larva

The reason people like me play solo is because we want items, and solo is far superior for items. But that doesn't mean that we can't also want to play multiplayer. We want to be able to play multiplayer and also get items. We want both of these at the same time. Why are you OK with an online game that heavily favors solo? How can you not see that as a major problem? Most players agree with me and want to play multiplayer and still be able to find items at a comparable rate to solo. We are upset that solo is so far and away superior to multiplayer, and would like to see this problem reduced as much as possible. This game should encourage people to play together, not discourage it!

The current game does not work better for most players. Most players care about items, and once they understand how the game works, they will usually be off soloing in a locked room or maybe occasionally playing with 1 or 2 close friends in a locked room. The only people who argue against us are the ones who refuse to acknowledge that most players care about finding items or they don't understand how the math works when comparing solo to multiplayer. If multiplayer was already worth playing for items, you would be able to explain why using math. But that's impossible since the math isn't on your side.

If the DAR for the new drop system was 100% or close to it, it wouldn't mean 4x more drops for the server. You are making the mistake of comparing multiplayer to multiplayer. A proper comparison would be solo to multiplayer. If 4 players solo and it takes them 60 mins to find an item, then 4 of the items drop for the server in total. If multiplayer was worth doing, these 4 players would play together in the same room, and after about 60 mins, all 4 players would find the item, so 4 of the items would drop for the server. 4 items = 4 items.

If we make multiplayer worth playing, and due to many players helping others, people clearing quests faster and items end up dropping a bit too often for the game's economy, the solution would be to make the rare item drop rates harder, not to punish players from working together. If your solution for anything is to discourage people from playing together, you should probably figure out a better solution. 

Meh...just disable it when you multiclienting solo op gamingpro mode are on, let the other players enjoy it......(of course never on the same party )

 

Also, if you care about this server growing, you would do what you can to improve the game and please the players. As you should already know, there are several other PSO private servers out there, so the better Ultima can become, the better chance it will pull away players from other servers. If this server encouraged multiplayer, that would be a big deal and it would be sure to bring in many new players, along with convincing some old players to return. New players join this server every day but most of them end up quitting after a short time. If the game encouraged multiplayer, it would go a long way in helping to keep them playing. More players means more donations, which means more money for you to keep maintaining and improving the game. It's very much win/win.

nope youre the only one caring for items as larva said if you dont like multiplayer drops, then go ahead and keep multiclienting whore  its simple dont use it, i dont see anyone complaining, they only ask about the rate and giving their opinion but not complaining about the system itself. I know alot of old users that dont care about items at all they play the game and you know its a game to enjoy(an online game,...  if you only want a online game to sell items or stuff,soloing multiclientingx6+  meh....goodluck with that.) the thing its simple at the end you can enable and disable it so whats the complaining 

 

enfin gracias Soly Y Larva por implementar este sistema se agradece un buen  de momento no e tenido tiempo de jugar pero ya pronto ojala se decida bien al final eso de los porcentajes Dark que no entiendo ni maye jajaja  

[Midori]

10 hours ago, Fyrewolf5 said:

You're saying that 100% dar wouldn't increase the number of drops on the server because those 4 players would solo in 4 different rooms and get the items at the same speed, but that's simply not true. This is due to a number of factors including being able to do better quests that can be done more efficiently, reliably, faster, etc. Time is also not the only way to look at it, it's a derived factor and not the initial one, which is Number of Monsters Killed; time is just a corollary that comes from being able to do better kinds of runs that gets more Number of Monsters Killed / Time Spent, but that also itself isn't the whole story since even different hunts on the same monster can require vastly different gear, skill level(difficulty), effort(workload), attention, coordination, etc. Are you trying to argue that there should be 4 of the item in 60 minutes? Or 6 of the item in 60 minutes since you talk about soloing with 6 accounts so much? Or should it be 24 of item in 60 minutes since all of the players in the room could be multiclienting with 6 accounts? Or better rates than that even so that multiplayer is 'worth it' in your eyes?
I had specifically mentioned in my post the idea that if the problem is "you aren't getting enough item drops to satisfy yourself with 'enough' stuff so that you feel comfortable helping others get their 'enough' stuff, then all that matters is easier rates". If as you imply here and have stated elsewhere before, the problem you have with multiplayer isn't just 'enough' stuff, but is solely that you think if you solo with multiple accounts that you can get 'more' stuff than if you multi, then the problem is not the rates of the drop system, it's not the rates of the game, it's not the server, it's not the admin; the problem then is you. There is no fair way to make the game be 15-25times more items (i.e. more than 4 people doing 6 client hunts) in multiplayer rather than solo. If your problem really is the 'more' stuff, there is no solution to that. You will never want to play multiplayer with other people in any mmo any more than is absolutely required if your reason for playing is 'I need to have the biggest dick-measuring contest possible'. As long as your problem is just the 'more', then multiplayer will ALWAYS remain an impossibility for you.

I talked about this problem already but I'll repeat myself for you. If we make multiplayer worth playing, and then as a result of it, more items are dropping overall and it's bad for the game's economy, the solution is not to discourage people from playing together. The solution would be to make the rare item drop rates harder. So let's say item X is dropping 30% more often than before and it hurts the economy. If you make the drop rate 30% harder, that problem is solved. Now we have a game that encourages multiplayer and still has a healthy economy. I can't stress this point enough so I will say it again: If your solution for anything is to discourage people from playing together, you should probably figure out a better solution.

And I wish people would stop saying that I love the idea of someone soloing with 4 or 6 accounts to get items faster. I am against this! I strongly believe that one person using multiple accounts to get items faster is bad for the game overall and it should not be allowed. If you look at my first post in this topic, I go over this and suggest ideas for solutions. The only reason I use multiple accounts is because it's the best way to play the game. It's the same reason why I solo in general. If the rules were changed to restrict it, then there would be a new best way to play the game. So that means I would still be able to play the game the best way, it just wouldn't involve using many accounts, which would be fine with me. It's a hassle to use many accounts at once anyway.

Instead of discussing how much or how little the game should punish people for playing together, we should be discussing how to solve the problem of the game punishing people from playing together.

[Varista]

24 minutes ago, Midori said:

1.) The solution would be to make the rare item drop rates harder. So let's say item X is dropping 30% more often than before and it hurts the economy. If you make the drop rate 30% harder, that problem is solved. 2.) If your solution for anything is to discourage people from playing together, you should probably figure out a better solution.

3.) And I wish people would stop saying that I love the idea of someone soloing with 4 or 6 accounts to get items faster. I am against this! I strongly believe that one person using multiple accounts to get items faster is bad for the game overall and it should not be allowed. 

4.) Instead of discussing how much or how little the game should punish people for playing together, we should be discussing how to solve the problem of the game punishing people from playing together.

I've broken your post down into what I have trouble understanding or believing.

1.) This made no sense to me. On a contextual standpoint you're telling me that if we make an item 30% easier to drop, we should just make it 30% harder than it cancels out? Okay, I can maybe see that, but then the question still stands: if we needed to buff the rate at which it spawns in the first place, it's probably not something that's going to ruin the economy, so why then does reverting it suddenly solve everything?

2.) Saith's solution was never to discourage multiplayer, if I'm reading his posts correctly he's on the stance that multiplayer is favored over solo to a much greater extent; by default, this would mean that he would have to find "solutions" that favor multiplayer. You're the only person that's discouraging it... I'm not sure if you've ever noticed, but giving out fictional data on why solo is better than multiplayer and then stating why it's better and why you should do it isn't really supporting a diverse playing field where multiplayer has distinct advantages over solo. You're consistently promoting solo, regardless of what you say your intentions are.

3.) You clearly do love that idea else you wouldn't be constantly giving fictional data on why it's better to do that than get on one account on one character and play with 3 other people. If you strongly believe that multi-clienting should be banned from the game, then the first step in showing your feelings would be to stop doing it yourself. I cut it out because it wasn't as important, but in your post you stated that you do it only because it's more efficient; let me tell you, the first step in creating a convincing argument (or a consistent one at that) is staying on one side of the argument and not deviating from that position. You tell us you hate multi-clienting and solo, yet you consistently bring us data on how and why solo should and is the best way to go. These are 2 completely different stances that you're taking in your argument; which is it? Are you in favor of solo and multi-clienting, or are you in favor of banning it and making multiplayer good for everybody? You can't be on both sides and then tell others to find better solutions when your "solution" is just switching sides over and over every other post.

4.) The system doesn't punish people from playing together. The reason why multiplayer is the way it is is so that you can make friends, build friendships, have fun with your current friends, play quests and finish said quests that you can't play by yourself. There are a plethora of quests that award great stuff or give the chance at great loot that you can only play in multiplayer, telling us to ignore these quests is an extremely ignorant thing to do; which inherently is what you seem to be telling us. "Multiplayer punishes people" the only thing multiplayer punishes people for is not healing when they need to. Other than the minor flaw of multiplayer needing to share items among themselves, multiplayer was mainly created as a social experience within a loot based game. Multiplayer offers advantages that many other things in solo doesn't. And let me tell you something, telling me you can solo those same multiplayer quests is bull shit because some of those quests require 4 people to even play; fight me.

 

[solo guy]

This thread is becoming a joke , where on one side we have the people my self included saying hey this game could be improved to encourage new players and people to play together with there own fair chance of getting items on the other side we have people who just don't understand that a game over ten years old could be improved for the better but because it dosnt fit there play style/concept of pso then it's just a bad greedy selfish idea. Not every player on this server is a member of a well geared highly active team , some may not want to join but with the way this ideas being handled ultima will continue to not hold onto new players long term as I've noticed in my time here as most hit the wall where they can't get what they want from the game anymore 

[El Socko]

To me the old drop system still seems fine, I just think players should try to find a good balance between hunting for themselves and helping others. Of course, I understand that people who haven't yet found everything they need will put emphasis on obtaining everything for themselves as quickly as possible, but it's a shame some players almost never team up with anyone, especially if they are good players.

Back in 2014, I had a couple of awesome friends who had much better gear than me at the time, we did tons of ROCTs and took turns with the Cent/Battles, so everyone ended up with at least two of them. Last year I wasn't around for the Summer event, but this year I got a kick out of helping a lot of people (must have been 7 or 8) getting a C/B simply because I finally have pretty much most of the gear I need, so helping others feels very rewarding. Altruism, you should try it sometime

Sure, I could have just locked myself away the whole time (and I still do from time to time) but my view is that what goes around comes around. I actually got one single C/B myself this year - on my own time, soloing.

I can relate a lot more to soloing stuff when it involves immensely difficult drops like STA or PGF (for those I indeed did so myself simply because I absolutely wanted one of each, especially after I got shafted on PGF drops in 2012 when my friends stopped showing up after we had found theirs and it was my turn), but in comparison many event items like C/B are a joke.

Edited June 27, 2016 by El Socko

[rayblasterx]

2 hours ago, Auroboro said:

3.) You clearly do love that idea else you wouldn't be constantly giving fictional data on why it's better to do that than get on one account on one character and play with 3 other people. If you strongly believe that multi-clienting should be banned from the game, then the first step in showing your feelings would be to stop doing it yourself. I cut it out because it wasn't as important, but in your post you stated that you do it only because it's more efficient; let me tell you, the first step in creating a convincing argument (or a consistent one at that) is staying on one side of the argument and not deviating from that position. You tell us you hate multi-clienting and solo, yet you consistently bring us data on how and why solo should and is the best way to go. These are 2 completely different stances that you're taking in your argument; which is it? Are you in favor of solo and multi-clienting, or are you in favor of banning it and making multiplayer good for everybody? You can't be on both sides and then tell others to find better solutions when your "solution" is just switching sides over and over every other post.

 

^^ this to the ten trillionth dw

Edited June 27, 2016 by rayblasterx

[Midori]

The reason I solo is because I want items. No need to overthink it. Currently the game forces me to choose between items or multiplayer. If things improve and I can have both at the same time, then I will be happier. If you think I'm crazy for caring about items in a game that's all about items, knock yourself out.

[Misombre]

@Midori I know how you feel.

Though, the game do not force anyone. If at any moment you feel forced, which can happen from time to time (even to the bests), then you need to reconsider your position in the world. Are you playing the game ? Or is the game playing with you ?

You are not crazy. You want to be the best. A lot of people do care and want to the best. Nothing wrong with that. But don't let the game do you in your back. You are the master.

@solo guy I agree... there is like a wave of misunderstanding and hypocrisy which would make puke even a dinosaur. A dead dinosaur. A dead fossilized dinosaur. In bad state of conservation. Probably a fake one to be honest...

@rayblasterx Dehydrated you seem to be, more water drink you should.

[Soly]

Alright... there will be a first adjustment soon and also add the current drop style to the room information in the lobby counter and to the command /roominfo.
Expect it in the next few days.

[Midori]

Thanks, Soly. I hope those changes actually end up reducing the gap between solo and multiplayer. I am a bit worried they won't, but I will wait to see exactly what happens before going into more detail.

[R-78]

On 26/06/2016 at 2:18 AM, BK-201 said:

Really happy about the pso2 drop system, but that's not how Probability works.
If 4 people has each 0.25=1/4 as chance to drop something, the chance that at least 1 will drop the item is not 1/4 x4 but it is-
1-(3/4)^4 = 0,68 (The chance that at least one event verifies is 1- ( the chance that exactly nobody will get the item) You can find this in every probability book.
So using those chances you are using the chance that at least one will get the item is way worse than 1.
This is a very common error.

Obviously the chance won't be the same, but as an average, it is.

You said it yourself : "at least", that means that you can actually get more than 1 as well so at the end if you repeat the same experience a lot of times, it will be approximatively the same.

 

On 26/06/2016 at 2:44 AM, Soly said:

@mudkipzjm I'm sorry, your post appeared twice, tried to get rid of one and it deleted both....

I think it was only a display bug as you have to wait some delay after you posted anything to post again.

 

 

With the 50% 33% and 25% rates, it looks more like the original dropstyle added to a random distribution of the loots : at the end all the room drops will be almost the same in average, and this can be annoying when someone doesn't need something someone else wants : if a trifluid drops for example, the cast won't bother picking it while a FO may need it. That's why I agree the room overall DAR should at least slightly increase with the number of players to make it worthful.

 

ATTENTION TO ALL PSO2 DROPSTYLE USERS

 

You have to be careful while using this mode for the time being because there are some bugs which can make all your teamates crash.

When a monster drops an item, you can pick it, but don't drop it again. If you really need to, then you can but do not take it back.

When you drop the item you found thanks to /dropstyle 1, no one can see it, no matters if you and your teamates are at pioneer or in ragol.

But it you pick it once more it will get an Error 100 to every user (except you) who were present in the room (pioneer or ragol) at the moment when you found the said item.

 

How to prevent that ?

- you can put it in bank and take it back, it will cancel the glitch

- you can tekker it, cancels the glitch too

- you can trade it with the trade window, the other player will see nothing so you need to add any other item so the trade can be done, at the end he will get both

- you can use it if it is consumable

 

If you took a stackable item, the glitched one will be the last one you drop if you drop them one by one.

The item can be equipped.

This happens only to mob loots (as boxes work with the common style) and do not happens to meseta.

 

(I post this because it happened to my team right before the end of IDS yesterday and 3 of us got disconnected >> mad xD)

 

Also, some more information about that system :

The dropstyle used is the one the first leader of the room had. If he leaves, it doesn't change.

The DAR reduction is applied to the number of players in the room.

That means if 3 players are at pioneer, you will have the 25% from original DAR when you kill a monster, although the 3 others won't get any drop when they come back to your area.

If they leave the room, DAR is readjusted.

 

That being told I would like to congratulate Soly on making that new system, it must have been a lot of work and you did an amazing job.

Thank you !

[Soly]

What you say about the "bug" should not happen.
I'd like in the future if you instead of making a post like this, first either PM me or post in bugs and crashes so we can check and make the proper announcement if necessary.
(I know you PM'd me but you said that you posted here)
That said, I'll check it out.

The party drop style as party ID doesn't change when the leader leaves.
The DAR however is based on the current number of players in the party.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Soly

[R-78]

 

28 minutes ago, Soly said:

The party drop style as party ID doesn't change when the leader leaves.
The DAR however is based on the current number of players in the party.

Was exactly what I meant, sorry if it wasnt clear enough, should have used the word party instead of room I guess

Edited June 27, 2016 by r-78

[Soly]

The problem regarding to dropping and picking up individual items has been fixed.

It will be put live most likely tonight.
In the meantime do as R-78 suggested to avoid the problem.

[Soly]

4 minutes ago, r-78 said:

Was exactly what I meant, sorry if it wasnt clear enough, should have used the word party instead of room I guess

No no, its fine, I was the one who didn't make it clear enough in the first post, when I said the drop style applies to the room/party.
The DAR being dynamically adjusted, I believe was clear enough tho.