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force a stronger class


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While I do agree with all that say that force needs some love, I do think that the gear is already there to make forces stronger. People just have to take their time out to get them. There are the facts that techs basically don't deal enough damage in episode 2. They deal enough in episode 4 and enough against most enemies in episode 1. Gibarta has a design flaw and unless there was someway to make tech cast faster for it then it would still be useless. Maybe they can make it's freezing rate more successful then it would be a bit more useful.

But there are weapons that can be used by forces that aid them in combat. For one I can use lindcray now and deal ridiculous damage that people fear and are amazed by. Then there is the occasional LAME or Hundred Souls that if you are good with can be used with force. You just need the right mag. Then there is the occasional bringers rifle that if you put more than 50 hit on it, it becomes exceptionally useful for force. Type Me/Mechs that you can put demon on or charge and deal damage with on top of your buffs and debuffs actually can make you seem like a ranger. The only problem is just faster casting rate maybe being a bigger opening for forces because it does take a little time to debuff an enemy which allows them to get in your face in that debuffing time frame. Forces are pretty squishy so maybe if they had shields or armors that gave them more health and a tad bit more ata to counter act the "miss" that you might get with items with no hit. I mean there is noob/hp that helps with the "squishiness" a bit. As far as for Fomars they need to have more edk on a shield that boosts ata a bit also because they can't hit anything without the combination of Red Ring and Godric's Cloak and still are useless in tower because you would have to substitute Godric's Cloak for Sonic Team Armor or sacrifice a unit and Red Ring for wizard/resist and an Anti-Dark Ring.

I do think that a weapon that could boost megid success rate by a tad bit would be great.

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@fyrewolf About magic being too powerful, by that same reasoning we shouldn't have things like typeSH/shot with hell. In most places that is more effective than any of the dark weapons, which are already very strong. While I don't like the idea of magic being super op. I think there are areas that could be improved upon if they haven't been done already. I don't mean making a bunch of super powerful force weapons. I think some places are not meant to solo, plain and simple.

Although I will readily admit I don't know a whole lot about this, I recently used someone saber for doing the gizonde trick on my ramarl. The difference in speed of casting was so much greater because of the animation that I constantly shot off too early and couldn't do it effectively. Animation speeds can make a big difference, seeing as there may not be another way to increase force casting speed. It is something that could be explored for making items in the future. Also, due to the nature of how this works it would never be an across the board bonus. It is going to speed some up but possibly slow others down as well, so in the end I feel it would still be rather balanced while giving forces a boost. I am not sure what all is possible, but maybe I will start running some tests to get an idea.

Even take say the different elemental wands, now if instead of wants if each was the type of weapon that gave the best overall casting speeed that matched it's boosts. I think that would be very helpful. I am not saying we remake the wands, but just an example of what I think could be possible.

As far as megid goes it may not be possible to fix, I still think it is just funny that my 30 hit hell rifle is more effective than a level 30 megid can be. Not only higher success rate but also a faster rate of fire.

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@fyrewolf About magic being too powerful, by that same reasoning we shouldn't have things like typeSH/shot with hell. In most places that is more effective than any of the dark weapons, which are already very strong. While I don't like the idea of magic being super op. I think there are areas that could be improved upon if they haven't been done already. I don't mean making a bunch of super powerful force weapons. I think some places are not meant to solo, plain and simple.

Although I will readily admit I don't know a whole lot about this, I recently used someone saber for doing the gizonde trick on my ramarl. The difference in speed of casting was so much greater because of the animation that I constantly shot off too early and couldn't do it effectively. Animation speeds can make a big difference, seeing as there may not be another way to increase force casting speed. It is something that could be explored for making items in the future. Also, due to the nature of how this works it would never be an across the board bonus. It is going to speed some up but possibly slow others down as well, so in the end I feel it would still be rather balanced while giving forces a boost. I am not sure what all is possible, but maybe I will start running some tests to get an idea.

Even take say the different elemental wands, now if instead of wants if each was the type of weapon that gave the best overall casting speeed that matched it's boosts. I think that would be very helpful. I am not saying we remake the wands, but just an example of what I think could be possible.

As far as megid goes it may not be possible to fix, I still think it is just funny that my 30 hit hell rifle is more effective than a level 30 megid can be. Not only higher success rate but also a faster rate of fire.

It's also not just the hell rifle or shot having better rate of fire, it's also v502 literally doubling the chance to hell proc. Hell wasn't really better until blue burst introduced that haha. Hell shot is good in some places, but it's not the ideal hell option for everywhere. It's very strong but anyone can also use a s-rank j-cutter or slicer with hell too (fast, good targeting, sn glitch works great), and there really is no compare with how much techs can just completely cover and stunlock an entire room (not just 5 monsters) without missing or failing. I do think if we make something like a not overly powerful gi-booster, it would be nice to have a wand so that females get that sweet fastest cast speed animation, but it's kinda annoying because males fastest cast speed is barehanded. I don't think it's possible to adjust the cast time for individual spells though, or make something like v802. I wish the elemental cloaks were actually worth using.

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-Magic being too strong can be a very real problem. If the force's rafoie will just kill everything in the room in 3-4 hits before anyone else can even run up to it, then that's not very fun for everyone else now. Magic is just one tool that can be useful sometimes, but if it is too strong, then with the extreme targeting range, aoe spread, inability to miss, ability to stunlock enemies, etc. it just becomes the dominant strategy that everyone devolves to using.

That is still the same effect any good ranged MT hell weapon has. Also the places where it isn't as good are often also the same places force magic isn't as effective either. I am not arguing which hell weapons are best just that there are already items out there that can clear a room before most people can even get to the monsters.

I am really only throwing out ideas that I think could be interesting for forces. I don't think Ra techs really need boosts, mostly just gi and simple techs, which is fairly close to what you also have in mind.

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Lol force is already an overpowered class, but to compete with hunters and rangers, you gotta play by their rules. But thats where lv 30 S/D + Hundred Souls or Lindcray comes into play. Ez Pz

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@Angeldust

Indeed, now the only "problem" with Force is that they need to juggle with a whole lotta stuff xD like two mags, tech stuff, fight stuff.

When you got all the stuff (or at least a big part of it), a Force really is powerful.

But hey, when you pick Force while creating your character, it is already said that Forces are the most difficult class to play. We shall not expect to compete as the same level as hunter and ranger with the same amount of work. But when you do master your Force and get proper gear, you can actually be "better" than a Hunter or Ranger (not everywhere and in every situation, but in most of them still).

Force teaches one that you cannot just spam your best, you need knowledge about your foes weaknesses and stuff diversification/juggling.

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But even a FO with low gear and level can help his teamates with SDJZR while a weak HU or RA will more likely be useless to his team (and especially if there is a strong FO already)

Imo they don't need to get boosted (except their Gizonde & Gibarta maybe), only some enemies need to have their resistance decreased.

Also their megid isn't worthless because it can pierce, unlike most hell weapons.

You only need to have a good placement.

Edited by r-78
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@Angeldust

Indeed, now the only "problem" with Force is that they need to juggle with a whole lotta stuff xD like two mags, tech stuff, fight stuff.

When you got all the stuff (or at least a big part of it), a Force really is powerful.

But hey, when you pick Force while creating your character, it is already said that Forces are the most difficult class to play. We shall not expect to compete as the same level as hunter and ranger with the same amount of work. But when you do master your Force and get proper gear, you can actually be "better" than a Hunter or Ranger (not everywhere and in every situation, but in most of them still).

Force teaches one that you cannot just spam your best, you need knowledge about your foes weaknesses and stuff diversification/juggling.

I would agree with this when I start seeing any force deal 2000+ damage. Even knowing all of the enemy's weaknesses I almost never see any force out damage a hunter or ranger. I agree that force should be more difficult, but I also feel that it should scale better than hunters or rangers, and I don't see that. I would consider myself to have high quality end game gear.

Example from a game I played just recently: We were running Power Plant Plight, and were in the 2nd room where there is the wall of mericarols. I pulled out my lindcray and started taking shots at the closest one. I was doing 970 with spirit special, 30 shift and 30 zalure. The ranger in the group (forgot who) took out his yas mechs and was doing the same damage per hit that I was with my single shot rifle. Even if I were to cast my spells, I would maybe deal 300 if I was lucky and it's resistance was low. This is horrible for something that has ammunition. Admittedly I don't have any "nuking" gear. But lets be honest, when you have maxed ATP and are using the best damage rifle for you're class and not matching 1/3 of the damage that other classes do, it isn't that it's more challenging to be good, it's that you're class just isn't good.

A whole class shouldn't be limited to 6 spells (J/Z/S/D/resta/reverser) and demon special. Especially when there are 15+ spells total.

Onto my point:

I think that Forces (especially formarl and fomar who are suppose to be good at this kind of thing) have too little ATA. I'll take a video sometime and post it, but with Smartlink, max ATA, and 100% hit I only hit on average 2 times with demon special on typeME\mech on a full combo. I understand that forces should not have the same familiarity with guns as rangers do, but they should at least have the same as hunters.

Edited by Lemon
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I can only agree on that, you made valid points on all the line =) Especially the ATA thing.

To be honest, I barely play Fo. But for what I saw, and for what I've been using as a Huney, some spells are just inexistant so you end up only using the same.

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I would agree with this when I start seeing any force deal 2000+ damage. Even knowing all of the enemy's weaknesses I almost never see any force out damage a hunter or ranger. I agree that force should be more difficult, but I also feel that it should scale better than hunters or rangers, and I don't see that. I would consider myself to have high quality end game gear.

Example from a game I played just recently: We were running Power Plant Plight, and were in the 2nd room where there is the wall of mericarols. I pulled out my lindcray and started taking shots at the closest one. I was doing 970 with spirit special, 30 shift and 30 zalure. The ranger in the group (forgot who) took out his yas mechs and was doing the same damage per hit that I was with my single shot rifle. Even if I were to cast my spells, I would maybe deal 300 if I was lucky and it's resistance was low. This is horrible for something that has ammunition. Admittedly I don't have any "nuking" gear. But lets be honest, when you have maxed ATP and are using the best damage rifle for you're class and not matching 1/3 of the damage that other classes do, it isn't that it's more challenging to be good, it's that you're class just isn't good.

A whole class shouldn't be limited to 6 spells (J/Z/S/D/resta/reverser) and demon special. Especially when there are 15+ spells total.

Onto my point:

I think that Forces (especially formarl and fomar who are suppose to be good at this kind of thing) have too little ATA. I'll take a video sometime and post it, but with Smartlink, max ATA, and 100% hit I only hit on average 2 times with demon special on typeME\mech on a full combo. I understand that forces should not have the same familiarity with guns as rangers do, but they should at least have the same as hunters.

yo lemon :3 i have to say that my lvl 130 FOnewm deal around 500-1000 with normal attack (normal-crit), 1500-2100 with heavy & 1900-2900 with soul special (100 souls)

and even my FOney does 1200+dmg with lindcray 0atts :P

i think there are many nice meele weps for FOs

only thing needs to be boosted is gizone and gifoie & the mat max of 150.. (but i think this wont change much on FOnewm/FOney

they need 200mind mags to max mind (200mind mag = 400+ on mind) with 100mats plus you will also need 2 mags :x but im not sure doesnt calced it

aaaaaaaand Dark Bridge needs the most love! xP (100%grants boost + special casts lvl30 megids/combo unlocked) this would make it to a dark weapon :3 amd zal double on DB isnt thaaaaat much usefull and its even not that special than other DWs have their own special :x but this is only my idea who i think it would be great

:3

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  • 2 months later...

New blood here who started less than a week ago but I had a background on the scht server before their crash. I will say that I do miss the tech boosts and merge system that came on that server. When you had all the boosting gear lined up it was indeed very powerful, but situationally so, and didn't really didn't feel broken in the end. Clearing a group requiring all 3 elements still took time, not to mention all the gear juggling. Even with all the boosts, strong Hunter/Ranger players certainly weren't feeling invalidated due to their consistent weapon damage, crowd control, and Demon's/Hell triggers they offer due to ATA issues with Forces. And yes, damage cancel. Forces are at their best for soloing Ep4 hunts, which makes sense due to the design of popular Ep4 quests shoving a great number of enemies with into each group at once, in addition to Ep4 enemies having fairly low resists. The stars aligning to make offensive Force techniques good or even ideal in Ep4 doesn't mean giving out boosts is broken, especially when techniques still have significant limitations in other episodes.

Edited by Wavebuster
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