Should Larva implement PSO2 style drops along with classic style?

[Fyrewolf5]

Saith, you can have any opinion you want but what bothers me is how you straight up lie about the game favoring multiplayer. Knock it off. It's obvious to anyone who has experience with this game that it favors solo over multiplayer.

Look at your weak arguments. You actually argued that multiplayer is better than solo because if you solo, you get so many items that it floods the market and reduces the value of items. Wow. Solo is so good that it's bad? Really now?

And then after that, you argue in favor of multi client. But wait. I thought multi client lead to flooding the market with items and destroying their value. So which is it? You don't make any sense.

And why would limiting or disabling multi client punish people who solo? You can still solo. You should only need one client to solo, right? No one is saying we should remove the option to solo. We want the option to play multiplayer and still get items. If most players prefer multiplayer, doesn't it make sense to encourage multiplayer?

There is nothing stopping you from soloing either. If multiplayer becomes worth doing, you can still solo if you want. Even though players like you are in the minority, you will always have the option to solo. Maybe it won't be as efficient as multiplayer, but it makes sense to do what is best for most players. We want this server to grow and improve, don't we?

Again, you can prefer solo all you want and have the opinion that solo is awesome and it should be vastly superior to multiplayer. I disagree but that's fine. Just don't lie and expect to fool me into thinking that the game actually favors multiplayer. We both know that's not the case. You can argue that RoCT favors multiplayer but what about the other 99% of the game? And even if we are just talking about RoCT, wouldn't it favor multiplayer even more if we didn't have to fight over the items along the way?

I'm not lying about anything. Being able to get tons of materials was your argument for favoring solo over multi, not mine, that you got so many items why shouldn't you only play solo. I was pointing out that it's not quite so simple. Just being able to get simple stuff like materials or glides doesn't necessarily mean solo is favored, you overlooked that you are also devaluing those items and ignoring all the secondary benefits you get from playing multi (helping others encourages others to help you in other ways, if you scratch others backs' in the spots they can't reach themselves, people will do the same for you when you need it). I didn't say that devaluing those things was bad, I'm all for having lots of good essentials like that around cheaply for the server. Twisting your argument around to say that it's actually my bad argument is pretty disingenuous.

Roct is not the only hard quest y'know (and it is certainly the best quest for some quite lucrative items like cent/battle and wedding dress). Not many people have the skill to solo Roct, or Sim 2.0, or Forest Offensive Simulator, or Gal Da Val's Darkness, or PW3, or ep2 MA4, or PTS, or Mine's Offensive, or ep2 Max S, or some others. Even when doing some of them solo is achievable, it's never nearly as good or efficient as multi, and very often severely restrictive as to what classes can actually manage to make it work ok without just bashing their head against a brick wall until the wall crumbles down on top of their crushed skull. Almost all of the best hunting quests are ones that are much better tackled with a team of players. You don't necessarily need all the best top tier gear to do the quests in a team, a group of good players that know what they are doing can do well with mid-tier gear.

If we did have drops per player, than doing one of the easier, slightly less efficient runs, but with multiple clients will be way way easier than before, needing to have to move all the chars into the room but only needing to keep the 1 geared char alive while dealing with 1 room of enemies and you get 4x the drops (doing 4 clients in 4 different rooms all geared, alive, and attacking monsters is way harder); running 4 characters into a room and then just focusing solely on one of them to kill everything with, and then just quickly checking for red boxes isn't really that much more intensive than soloing already. Limiting or disabling multi clienting though would punish people who play with family, punish people who like to invite their friends over for lan parties and play together, punish people that like to have many many accounts with dozens of different characters, punish people that like to chat in lobby while doing stuff in a room with another char, and punish people that just prefer to keep to themselves and play solo for whatever personal reasons they may have.

I maintain that almost everything with the game design favors multiplayer over solo. Event design is different though, that's where there are some things that can be worked on so that everyone feels like they have a decent chance at getting things, things like how long the event lasts, weekends with temporary better rates, better rates in general, multiple places for a drop (so that some classes aren't screwed by kind of hunt being terrible for them), maybe more mini-events with prizes from the major event accompanying the major events, etc.

[Midori]

OK Saith. I'm going to stop arguing with you for now. This thread is supposed to be about how we can improve the game and make the multiplayer better, not a debate over if the game favors multiplayer or not. If you want to continue, please send me a PM and we can argue a bit more in private.

[TripleR]

I think the big issue here is more to do with the people on the server than the drop system. Reading this is kind of upsetting to me, I forget where it was mentioned but saying something along the lines of how it would be nice if we didn't need manners here? I mean I know this is a game, but it's an old ass game, there is newer stuff out with more features and all that but what we really have here is a fun game, with a great community. The idea of opening a game up for a specific hunt, and others who want that also will join without fear of having your drop stolen is nice. Not if all those other players only care about getting what they want and leaving, maybe you are the unlucky one, in which case, individual drops is still not going to favor you. However if you have a team of people you trust that will help, that is ALWAYS going to go much further regardless the drop system. As well as letting you get access to places to hunt that solo player will never be able to do.

There are really two sides to this, because I think for some people it would be a big benefit. Mostly those who aren't able to put as much time into the game, and able to make as strong of connections with people. That will benefit them a lot because their chances of playing with people they trust is much lower(however if you are in that situation come to lobby13 there is a good chance someone there is down to help you out). But if the system is ONLY there to help people we know are playing this game all the time, to not have to worry about sharing, and having some respect when they play then this idea is total bullshit.

I am in favor because it could potentially help some people, maybe those who don't play much, or those who have trouble communicating with others, but to everyone who has been here a while. You should have some people you trust enough by now to hunt with, a lot of us have reputations we don't want ruined, I trust almost anyone who I know from forums or who I see on on a regular basis.

If you want to play like you are an asshole I am totally cool with you going to a different server haha but I still see how this could benefit some people in different situations. Fact is if you ask me you can get further as a team than alone, and no amount of quad logging skill is going to change that. I would love to see someone quad log ROCT.

I will say, me and midori talked about this before, and a good point is that say someone is playing as a force, it is very easy for them to have their drops stolen. I agree with this but I still stand by the fact that you get further in a team than on your own.

Also, players can still slow you down if they are in you game with or without individual drops

[Malxerz]

The only problem is that 4 people don't beat a run 4x as fast. I recall suggesting to create a quest where there is a lottery reward like ROCT, that can only be beaten by two or more sentient players. Like put timers on buttons of some sort. Or just difficult so it takes two actual players, most of the events can only be accomplished by certain players anyways so I don't see the problem with leaving players out who aren't full of items, that already happens.

I don't know, I'm just a doge

[mudkipzjm]

My main argument for kind of leaning towards not having drops-per-player is that the nerfed rate as people join is a huge turn-off. Me and probably a few others as well would prefer using the drop system already in place for event items and those shit items with drops rates that are 1/bullshit(i.e. nei's, sjs, some of the shamby drops). I'd rather have me and a friend or two hunt and agree on who gets the drops then half to put in twice the amount of runs to get the same drop. This would only encourage people to use the "classic" drop system and hunt solo or with people they trust, rather than play with others. The whole point of having the drop system would be encourage players to help eachother more, and having the rates nerfed as people join isn't quite encouraging people to hunt together. As far as whether or not the current system prefers solo or multi is up to your own opinion, mine being that it prefers multi. You can be much more efficient as a group of people than just playing solo. As for the running 6 clients at once, not everyone has the pc or know-how to be able to have that many games running at one time. Anyhow, as Saith said, this game wasn't meant to do drops-per-player and doing it half-assed wouldn't benefit anyone at all.

Edited April 29, 2016 by mudkipzjm

[dmoney1969]

On the other server I've played with the pso2 style drops. With a full room with 4 people, I didn't notice any difference in rares dropping. Rares still dropped normal. They are just sorted to each player one at a time. If you try the style and don't care for it. Then you have the choice to play in normal mode. If Ps02 drops get implemented and I play with a group of friends or just one friend. I would set it to normal drops. Ps02 drops just make it fun to have open rooms or if none of your friends are on, to join random games and have fun and not have to worry about other people snatching up all the drops.

[Cyane]

This is a two edged sword the do or don't is up to Larva in the end.

I would put this on a spoiler but too lazy.

I would like to talk about how ultima was before, it seems to have changed a bit... let's tell a long story unrelated to this(?).

A few years ago, a lv 1 Cyane/Fonewearl/Whitill, started it's adventure on ultima, she kept doing "solo rooms" and doing easy one player quests, she wasn't progressing, wasn't having fun at all, her mag was a mess with about 35 def by now, she was about lv 60 unsure how to earn levels faster, her gear was still some cheap Talis and some shop items, she got into a team because they spoke their language, and she opened a bit more to the community.

Christmas event happened, the team master wanted one thing only, PGF, the fonewearl wanted some experience, some levels to get stronger, the team master and some of his friends brought her through some ttf's on vh, she got some fancy event rares, seemed like they had plenty already and they let her grab all the things (she kinda asked if it was ok, what a polite fonewearl she was).

She hit level 100, she was feeling quite strong! Even with the crappy gear, she got a red merge or whatever it was at the time made her feel like she was the strongest, in vh!

Now we start with the team leader plan, getting his PGF, he and his team mates shared with me some techs, pimped my gear up a bit with nice gifts, and asked for a simple thing, to do her part on the team, keep them healthy!

So she and her syringe that she had found on ttf also, moved on to the next stage, respective tomorrow, tons of fun and many deaths until she got used to it, she managed to get some more of those tasty event drops that they seemed to be tired of getting.

We done countless runs and it was sort of fun, she was at lv 150 by then. the event had ended, but she had hoarded a massive amount of event items, the next few weeks she was playing randomly with other teams, and setting up some 1pd shops with all her event gear and some other trinkets. She managed to hoard enough to buy a hylian of a player.

Now with a few more characters on her slots, a new ranger a new hunter, she needed to improve their equips to move onto the next challenges. She ended up switching teams and the new team master was sort of a funny guy, he would share a lot, he would make us go on hunts by force, and then would give you what he found, a red ring dropped, we were hunting for him, but he let her have it since she didn't had any yet!

She kept seeing kindness, she wanted to give some back, she started picking everyone from lv 1 and bringing them to higher difficulties supporting them, playing with others was fun, even with all the objectives she had, she thought she could give away x and y items that weren't doing so well on her shops, and since she started to have tooo many characters she was whiling to log one for experience while others were using them as ids for their own hunts, both earned something in a way.

Moving on to the next team, she made lots of good friends, kept this sort of vibe going, we are just running, if something drops we ask who needs, if somebody needs something we all go and give a hand, then the next time if she needed something they will be there for her too! Summer event comes by, the fun of getting those tickets at the end of the quest was enough to keep her going, even if she was using a class she wasn't comfortable with yet, she was learning she could get those fabled tp mats, she wanted the room full of peoples, earning 4 tickets instead of 1 was a lot more worth it. She ended up getting some pbc's too in return of those many runs.

One for you one for me. Cover my weakness i'll cover yours. I'll help you because i know you'll be there for me next time. Those were all the things she saw on her adventure now Cyane lv 200/Fonewearl/Whitill

[Shisui]

the droprate of the droptable shoudnt be changed..

cause if you lower the rate most will play lonley multi cause its a better chance to get this item for themselfe

best would be lowering droprate in rooms :3 but not that much cause there are items who sucks hunting them atm (tjs / guld / some others)

with the multimode it will get a pain in the ass to hunt such items..

and in events all will hunt items on themselfe

cause the droping rate is better...

(this will only happen if the pso2 dropstyle will lower droprates in the partys tooooo much)

i can understand larva.. its hard to implement this style

so let him the time to think about it even if it needs weeks/months

[mudkipzjm]

I would honestly be nowhere near I am not without others' help. Whether it be from the teams I've been on, random kind strangers, or the lads I talk to on a daily basis(<3 you guys). If I had decided to go solo and not even bother playing with others, I wouldn't have the gear or the friends I've made on the server.

Edited April 29, 2016 by mudkipzjm

[solo guy]

I have a question for people who have played with this system, it is if you have a character parked in pioneer 2 do they still get drops ? We've all joined games in progress and seen drops that we didn't take part in still there so if the game is dropping an item per player in game theorecticaly if it does this you park 3 chars in pioneer 2 clear what you wanted with your strong char then run through after 1 at a time collecting drops ? Again this is just a question and if kill participation is needed then multi logging will be harder to abuse this system which is basically one of big reasons I'm worried about due to I only dual log to transfer items , if I need an id then I just make a character to hunt rather then dual log for an id and it would be sad if you just quadra logged and ran 3 chars through a cleared area just getting rares : (

[Shominaminoto]

Yah well on the "other server" pso2 drop rates are like this. for each person who joins the group, the drop anything rate scales like so:

1P: 100% DAR

2P: 82% DAR

3P: 67% DAR

4P: 54% DAR

Honestly if the system was implemented like above it would be perfect.

I've grown so tired of solo-ing with multiple logins. I'd love to play with others but it is just not worth my time when I can benefit myself with just a little added effort.

I don't even play with my friends anymore because, once again, it just isn't worth the loss of potential solo-value of items versus having to split it.

If this idea gets shot down I don't see myself playing Ultima too much longer.

This isn't a democracy lol

Right, but we are the user-base that keep the servers afloat. They can't keep us here like an oppressive government can.

I'm not implying they need to meet all of our demands but to at least hear the people out.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Shominaminoto

[Izaya]

yes

[tru]

This is a two edged sword the do or don't is up to Larva in the end.

I would put this on a spoiler but too lazy.

I would like to talk about how ultima was before, it seems to have changed a bit... let's tell a long story unrelated to this(?).

A few years ago, a lv 1 Cyane/Fonewearl/Whitill, started it's adventure on ultima, she kept doing "solo rooms" and doing easy one player quests, she wasn't progressing, wasn't having fun at all, her mag was a mess with about 35 def by now, she was about lv 60 unsure how to earn levels faster, her gear was still some cheap Talis and some shop items, she got into a team because they spoke their language, and she opened a bit more to the community.

Christmas event happened, the team master wanted one thing only, PGF, the fonewearl wanted some experience, some levels to get stronger, the team master and some of his friends brought her through some ttf's on vh, she got some fancy event rares, seemed like they had plenty already and they let her grab all the things (she kinda asked if it was ok, what a polite fonewearl she was).

She hit level 100, she was feeling quite strong! Even with the crappy gear, she got a red merge or whatever it was at the time made her feel like she was the strongest, in vh!

Now we start with the team leader plan, getting his PGF, he and his team mates shared with me some techs, pimped my gear up a bit with nice gifts, and asked for a simple thing, to do her part on the team, keep them healthy!

So she and her syringe that she had found on ttf also, moved on to the next stage, respective tomorrow, tons of fun and many deaths until she got used to it, she managed to get some more of those tasty event drops that they seemed to be tired of getting.

We done countless runs and it was sort of fun, she was at lv 150 by then. the event had ended, but she had hoarded a massive amount of event items, the next few weeks she was playing randomly with other teams, and setting up some 1pd shops with all her event gear and some other trinkets. She managed to hoard enough to buy a hylian of a player.

Now with a few more characters on her slots, a new ranger a new hunter, she needed to improve their equips to move onto the next challenges. She ended up switching teams and the new team master was sort of a funny guy, he would share a lot, he would make us go on hunts by force, and then would give you what he found, a red ring dropped, we were hunting for him, but he let her have it since she didn't had any yet!

She kept seeing kindness, she wanted to give some back, she started picking everyone from lv 1 and bringing them to higher difficulties supporting them, playing with others was fun, even with all the objectives she had, she thought she could give away x and y items that weren't doing so well on her shops, and since she started to have tooo many characters she was whiling to log one for experience while others were using them as ids for their own hunts, both earned something in a way.

Moving on to the next team, she made lots of good friends, kept this sort of vibe going, we are just running, if something drops we ask who needs, if somebody needs something we all go and give a hand, then the next time if she needed something they will be there for her too! Summer event comes by, the fun of getting those tickets at the end of the quest was enough to keep her going, even if she was using a class she wasn't comfortable with yet, she was learning she could get those fabled tp mats, she wanted the room full of peoples, earning 4 tickets instead of 1 was a lot more worth it. She ended up getting some pbc's too in return of those many runs.

One for you one for me. Cover my weakness i'll cover yours. I'll help you because i know you'll be there for me next time. Those were all the things she saw on her adventure now Cyane lv 200/Fonewearl/Whitill

That was a nice story cyane c: It's always nice to hear people's experience when starting out on this server (many people have had positive experiences). I'm disappointed you started out with Fonewearl and not Fonewm tho Fonewm master race!!

Just to put things in perspective from a statistical standpoint. If the dpp system was implemented the same way it was on Ephinea, like this:

1P: 100% DAR

2P: 82% DAR

3P: 67% DAR

4P: 54% DAR

Then lets say for example I was quad logging the beginning of MA4DMD (which is very easy with forces tbh), and I had 4 pinkals for example. So the drop rate not including DAR of Mother Garb+ is 1/317 and Dorphons have about a 20 percent chance of dropping nothing making the solo drop 1/393. If 4 players are in game with that drop system above then the drop of each player would be 1/488 or 1/585 with DAR included.

Now lets say I defeated 317 dorphons. Solo this would mean there would be a 36.7% chance of not getting MG+ http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=N%5B100*(392%2F393)**(393),3%5Dand 63.3% chance of me getting the drop.

If I killed defeated 317 dorphons quad logging (which wouldn't take much longer I assure you) I would have an 11.4% chance of not getting MG+ http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=N%5B100*(584%2F585)**(1268),3%5Dwhich means an 88.6 % chance of getting the drop.

That's extremely significant. Right now I would typically farm MG+ solo, but if the drop system was implemented exactly the way it was on Ephinea, then I would have to quad log because that's the best way to hunt that. I'm not saying that drop system would require quad logging at all times, but I am saying for that particular hunt (and many more), that would be the best way to hunt for it. I feel like I would enjoy solo hunting MG+ more than quad logging. It's a inconvenience logging all the characters in in the first place if I'm only gonna be playing pso for 5-10 mins anyways.

If they made it so the drop was 4 times harder for each player to get then after killing 393 dorphons with 4 players they would have a 36.8% chance of not getting the drop http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=N%5B100*(584%2F585)**(1268),3%5Dwhich is a 63.2% chance of finding it. Almost the same chance just a little bit lower. At this point it wouldn't be worth quad logging for hunts and it would still benefit new players.

However, what I expect would happen is new players would create rooms called "hunt mg+" with the normal drop system activated so they have the best chance of getting MG+ (1/393 vs 1/1572 with 4 players) then we're back in the same situation where we are now. No one would join his room that he called the drop for. People would continue to lock their rooms and play solo. You could argue that the newer player should make his room using the dpp system, but then what are the chances the other people would actually give him the drop he was looking for if they found it. They would just lie about finding the item, say they found a different rare and leave the room. Now he's still hunting at a ridiculously low rate (1/1572) and not getting any closer to his goals.

Velocity suggested what sounds like a good idea. To make a completely new drop table when dpp system is activated making it so people could still enjoy this feature while not abusing via quad logging. However, it would take a ton of work to balance that kind of a drop table out. Adjusted drops constantly whenever things start to seem out of hand will just end up causing more issues and bugs.

The next thing people start suggesting is get rid of dual logging. I think Fyrewolf5 gave a perfect explanation for why that is out of the question. He explained why getting rid of dual logging per PC is an issue, and if you get rid of people logging on with the same IP then you can't play with your family or roommate (out of the question). Even if we were to suffer all the loses that come with only being able to have 1 instances of pso up per computer then that would just reward people with multiple computers.

I have multiple computers and I guarantee you that I would log onto them and abuse the system if it was made poorly like it has been suggested.

Fyrewolf5 made a lot of good points. When changes are made pros and cons are inevitable. The only changes that have been suggested haven't been well thought out (as he pointed out). I'm not saying there isn't a solution. I'm just saying one hasn't been found yet.

Even if the perfect solution is found out Larva may (and probably will) say no to it, and nothing will be done. People should realize that changes on this server happen very gradually, and I don't think this is as much of a pressing issue as other people seem to think.

I don't like this poll because it's not specific. Should dpp system be implemented yes or no. Well how can we answer that if we don't know how it'll get implemented?

[Ricardo Gomes]

im pretty sure that if pso2 drop style get implement, there will be way more solo rooms that ever, unless they lower the scale rate by user or some like that, just like hunting a SN on a 4 person room, on a base EX, 1P: 100% DAR 2P: 82% DAR 3P: 67% DAR 4P: 54% DAR, even in HH it takes forever, unlike solo play, like midori says, solo play will be the only way to hunt, and multi person room, lets just say, will be for CCA at most. not talking about missions like ROCT and similars that indeed needs multi persons. just think over on all most of event drops and all year drops, they can be hunted solo. one more thing, saying that pso2 style will get more multi person rooms is an utopia, because it already appens in good old style on a good chance drop.

for me, if pso2 style is to be implement, at least that they give a decend rate scale for indeed encourage multi rooms, or we will see multi rooms for level up only or multi low level persons, that how it will work, the weaks will be for sure left aside with pso2 style incressed low rate for person

[Zynetic]

Everyone still hunts solo even with this drop system, because everyone has different aims and goals (and play at different times), meaning people rarely sync up when they're hunting. Of course, with how Ultima events are handled, I would assume an individual drop system would make people play together for the events at least.

At the very least, this drop system just makes multiplayer more rewarding when actually played.