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Damage comparison of weapons Charge ME Mechs Vs Charge Vulcs, 100 Souls vs Excalibur, impact of Sue's Coat (Damage Calculation included)


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Hello everyone c:
Oftentimes when people learn about new weapons they wonder how good they are. I've wondered for a long time if hundred souls was a good investment as well as charge type me mechguns. There's a lot of false information where people exaggerate how much damage some weapons can do. I've compiled damage comparisons for different classes so you can get a good idea of how strong these weapons can be. All these tests are done with the max ATP of the class and Red Ring equipped. I took the average damage based on multiple tests. Keep in mind Excalibur and Hundred Souls have a pretty large ATP variance, so you can sometimes do around 100 more or less damage each swing. Even Vulcan has an ATP variance. I was originally planning on making a video showing all the damage my characters were doing, but my footage ended up being 2-3 hours all together and it's a pain to upload that much. If you want to see any part of the video I suppose you can request it.
These weapons I've tested with different attributes % so you can see the impact percents make on weapons with high ATP vs low ATP. In addition, I've included Sue's Coat so you can see the impact that makes on damage for the characters who can equip it. All these calculations were done recording the damage of the special attack with the exception of Psycho Raven and Hundred Souls on HUcast and HUcaseal (the number listed there is the amount they do with heavy attack).
After all the tests I will be discussing the damage calculation formula. I've written a bit of an explanation for the HUnewearls damage compilation because there's some interesting stuff there, check it out c:

FOmarl


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FOnewearl



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FOnewm


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FOmar (with Godric's Cloak equipped)


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HUcaseal


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sGDb5hX.png



HUcast


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HUnewearl


h5kypvd.png
So what really sticks out here and is really weird is that Charge Vulcan with 50 percent in machine is weaker than Charge Type ME Mechgun in every situation (you can check other ones I posted) except when Sue's Coat is involved. With Sue's Coat equipped Charge Vulcans with 50% machine becomes stronger oddly enough. The same is true for HUcaseal. This would suggest that Armor ATP is affected by percents or something along those lines. I still need to figure this out. The damage calculation formula I post below was before I noticed this fact. So the Armor ATP (and probably Shield ATP) most likely go inside the parenthesis and not outside, but I have to do more testing to be sure.



Damage Calculation Formula


Keep in mind this is not the exact one you can find online. That one isn't accurate when you plug in the numbers. Some of the multipliers here might not be 100% correct, but that's only because we don't have a confirmed value of the enemies defense, so I have to assume the bestiary on pso.univers-ps.com is accurate for this server (as it has been suggested to be the most accurate.)

[(Base ATP * (Shifta + 1.0)] + [(Minimum Weapon ATP + (Grind * 2)) * (Weapon Attribute expressed as a percent + 1.0)] + Armor ATP + Shield ATP = Total ATP
If the weapon you are using has an atp variance then add this amount to the formula above to get the maximum amount of damage:
[(Maximum Weapon ATP - Minimum Weapon ATP) * Shifta]

Then use this formula
[(Total ATP - DFP of enemy)/5]* .89 for base attack 1.69 for heavy attack 2.98 for sacrificial attack (I still need to do more testing with Vjaya but it has a higher multiplier of course)

To calculate shifta use this formula
[1.3 * (Technique Level - 1)] + 10
Use this amount expressed as a percent in the formula above.

To find the defense of an enemy use http://pso.univers-ps.com/bb/monstres/liste.php(I think the website is down right now, but hopefully it'll be up again shortly)
The defense of Bartles is 600
The defense of Gillchich is 718

For a critical hit, take the final number and multiply it by 1.5

Try testing this formula and comparing the numbers I've posted above. They come out to the same generally.



I plan on updating this post to explain more about it later, but for now if you have any questions about the formula, or if you want to know how much damage a certain weapon would do on an enemy from a certain class feel free to post here asking.
Having a definite formula could be useful in deciding how much you want to invest to sphere your weapons. For example, if you only needed lets say 65% percent on a HUcast to kill a Sinow Zoa with a N H H combo then maybe that's the exact amount you want to invest.
If we could get exact stats of enemies we could calculate the chance of hitting these enemies which would further inform people on how much they should invest in weapons.
I also plan on doing some tech damage comparisons at some point on a different thread.

Edited by tru
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I'm curious at how s and z30 would effect the hu classes. I remember my huney hitting a bit harder than that when I still had my maxed out 100 souls. Also I think Midori already has a FOnewm vs FOnewearl tech damage comparison somewhere. Obviously FOmarl and Fomar are going to do a bit less tech damage than the aforementioned classes.

Edited by mudkipzjm
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I think Midori already has a FOnewm vs FOnewearl tech damage comparison somewhere. Obviously FOmarl and Fomar are going to do a bit less tech damage than the aforementioned classes.

Yes she did. I was also gonna compare the damage of pw and pb so people can decide if it's a good investment. I was also gonna test against every enemy in the game.

Just RA-techs tho. It'll be a bit different. I wanna calculate how much mst you need to kill enemies in a certain amount of spell casts and stuff like that.

Still looking for rabarta merge though :"L

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Good topic. I currently have a set of maxed Lindcrays for my FOnewearls and I'm wondering if it's worth it for me to get Charge Type ME/Mechguns. If you could compare these two weapons, I would appreciate it.

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congratulation for the offer you did to present these tests in the community, even though it is not completely accurate, demonstrate the substantial differences in the use of those weapons from different characters and classes, keep up the good effort!

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Okay so you tested FOmar but not HUmar? Bias :P

I wanted to test Humar but I never raised one lol.

Your attack multipliers are a little off I think, I believe they are normal = 0.9, hard = 1.89, sacrificial = 3.32, vjaya = 5.56.

Vjaya is significantly stronger than the rest as you can see.

Yeah the formula you can find online with those multipliers doesn't apply to this server. Whenever you plug any numbers into it, you get inaccurate results. With this formula you get accurate results c: That's part of the reason I did this test in the first place. I was annoyed that we couldn't calculate damage accurately. Still annoyed we don't have access to enemies stats, but we could probably figure out defense and a few others stats by comparing damage in between servers where we know monster's stats.

Edited by tru
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I wanted to test Humar but I never raised one lol.

Yeah the formula you can find online with those multipliers doesn't apply to this server. Whenever you plug any numbers into it, you get inaccurate results. With this formula you get accurate results c: That's part of the reason I did this test in the first place. I was annoyed that we couldn't calculate damage accurately. Still annoyed we don't have access to enemies stats, but we could probably figure out defense and a few others stats by comparing damage in between servers where we know monster's stats.

The formula is actually pretty accurate, the only known missing part is monster dfp which can be reverse calculated. It's not a good idea to try to rewrite the formula to use vanilla monster dfp and calculate damage on ultima, monster stats are not all boosted by the same amount here. The formula is the same, we can just figure out the ultima monster dfp.

Upon doing some testing, it appears the 0.9 normal attack is a bit of a rounding error or something, if it is substituted with 1 it works much better and the hard attack multiplier works just fine. Tested with charge yasminkov also and the special attack was averaging about 3.32 more than normal attack also (yas does have atp variable, but the ranges were matching up approximately well).

Some approximate monster dfp (note, rounding may make some of these values slightly off, tested with pr and red mechs since they have no atp variable)

Vulmer and Govulmer - 898dfp (did 247 normal, 467.5 hard, 247.4 x 1.89 = 467.586)

Nano Dragon - 924dfp (236 normal, 445 hard, 236.6 x 1.89 = 445.284)

Gilchich - 859dfp (249 normal, 470 hard, 248.6 x 1.89 = 469.854)

Canadine - 822dfp (256 normal, 484.5 hard, 256.4 x 1.89 = 484.596)

Arlan and Bulclaw 910dfp (263.5 normal, 498 hard, 263.5 x 1.89 = 498.015)

Claw 860dfp (273 normal, 516 hard, 273 x 1.89 = 515.97)

Gran Sorcerer 828dfp (279.5 normal, 528 hard, 279.5 x 1.89 = 528.255)

Merlan 918dfp (261 normal, 494 hard, 261.4 x 1.89 = 494.046)

Del-D 930dfp (259 normal, 489.5 hard, 259 x 1.89 = 489.51)

Belra 1135dfp (218 normal, 413 hard, 218.4 x 1.89 = 412.776)

Edited by Fyrewolf5
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The formula is actually pretty accurate, the only known missing part is monster dfp which can be reverse calculated.

Upon doing some testing, it appears the 0.9 normal attack is a bit of a rounding error or something, if it is substituted with 1 it works much better and the hard attack multiplier works just fine. Tested with charge yasminkov also and the special attack was averaging about 3.32 miore than normal attack also (yas does have atp variable, but the ranges were matching up approximately well).

Some approximate monster dfp (note, rounding may make some of these values slightly off, tested with pr and red mechs since they have no atp variable)

Vulmer and Govulmer - 898dfp (did 247 normal, 467.5 hard, 247.4 x 1.89 = 467.586)

Nano Dragon - 924dfp (236 normal, 445 hard, 236.6 x 1.89 = 445.284)

Gilchich - 859dfp (249 normal, 470 hard, 248.6 x 1.89 = 469.854)

Canadine - 822dfp (256 normal, 484.5 hard, 256.4 x 1.89 = 484.596)

Arlan and Bulclaw 890dfp (263.5 normal, 498 hard, 263.5 x 1.89 = 498.015)

Claw 840dfp (273 normal, 516 hard, 273 x 1.89 = 515.97)

Gran Sorcerer 808dfp (279.5 normal, 528 hard, 279.5 x 1.89 = 528.255)

Merlan 898dfp (261 normal, 494 hard, 261.4 x 1.89 = 494.046)

Del-D 910dfp (259 normal, 489.5 hard, 259 x 1.89 = 489.51)

Belra 1114dfp (218 normal, 413 hard, 218.4 x 1.89 = 412.776)

Nice! I appreciate you doing some tests. what was the atp of the class you were using? Was shifta, red ring or any percents involved?

I feel that some of the components posted here http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165604

Are in the wrong spots. Particularly shifta and grinds precents armor atp and shield atp. Calculating damage without those things involved is easy, but with them involved it can get confusing. It seems armor atp is affected by percents and shifta affects possibly more than just base atp and the difference between min and max atp.

If the charge multiplier is 3.32 which is probably is, then Gillchichs have 830 defense, but then how did FOney do any damage to them at all without shifta with vulcs and me mechs? Her atp + rr + me mechs base atp + grind doesn't exceed 830 suggesting that she shouldn't be able to do any damage.

Edited by tru
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Nice! I appreciate you doing some tests. what was the atp of the class you were using? Was shifta, red ring or any percents involved?

I feel that some of the components posted here http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165604

Are in the wrong spots. Particularly shifta and grinds prevents armor atp and shield atp. Calculating damage without those things involved is easy, but with them involved it can get confusing. It seems armor atp is affected by percents and shifta affects possibly more than just base atp and the difference between min and max atp.

They aren't in the wrong spots, and even then they could just be added together in different order. Armor atp is not affected by %s, nor does shifta/grinds prevent armor or shield atp, shifta only affects base atp and atp variable. Armor atp, shield atp, and grind atp are just a flat addition to your atp; Red Ring will always give you 20 more atp regardless of your level of shifta, your weapon %s, or anything else

(note: Armor ATP and Shield ATP refer to things like Sue's Coat and D-Parts armors, Kasami Bracer, Combat Gear, and Red Ring shields, etc. Armors that boost specific weapons by a % of their WeaponATP work differently, such as Thirteen and Sweetheart. They do interact with weapon attribute%s and adds to maximum atp variable for shifta).

Fomarl normal attacks vs Bartles with Maxed ATP RR excal 0% and excal 80% with/without 30shifta and with/without 1 male nearby for sweetheart boost

No Shifta

0 male 0% : 233-239 damage

1 male 0%: 259-267 damage

0 male 80%: 317-327 damage

1 male 80%: 341-355 damage

30 Shifta

0 male 0%: 366-373 damage

1 male 0%: 410-418 damage

0 male 80%: 452-460 damage

1 male 80%: 452-504 damage

Last one clearly shows it adds to maximum atp variable. ATP differences with/without shifta show a difference (without male to with male, no shifta1943 to 2085, and 30 shifta 2429 to 2575)

Example: Maxed Racast with 20 shifta with D-Parts 1.01 armor and Red Ring, using PR+80 25% Native on a Booma. (ATR%= attribute %s, ATPVar= ATP variable)

(1450BaseATP x 1.347shifta) + (ATPVar x 0.347shifta) + (WeaponATP x ATR%) + (Grind x 2) + (ArmorATP) + (ShieldATP) = FinalATP

(1953.15)_______________ + (0 x 0.347)_________ + (485 x 1.25)_________ + (80 x 2)___+ (35)______ + (20)______ = FinalATP

(1953.15)_______________ + (0) _______________ + (606.25)____________ + (160)____ + (35)______ + (20)______ = 2774.4

Edit: since you asked about what I was using for test in previous post, I was using racast with 1439 atp and 25 0 0 25 PR+80 and red ring on, with no shifta. Status screen showed 2104 total atp, therefore I had 2104 atp vs the caves and mines enemies, and 2225.25 vs the ruins enemies because of the 25 dark on pr adding another 121.5 atp (I actually made slight error vs the ruins enemies and was off by 20 dfp on all of them, but I edited it now).

Edited by Fyrewolf5
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They aren't in the wrong spots, and even then they could just be added together in different order. Armor atp is not affected by %s, nor does shifta/grinds prevent armor or shield atp, shifta only affects base atp and atp variable. Armor atp, shield atp, and grind atp are just a flat addition to your atp; Red Ring will always give you 20 more atp regardless of your level of shifta, your weapon %s, or anything else

(note: Armor ATP and Shield ATP refer to things like Sue's Coat and D-Parts armors, Kasami Bracer, Combat Gear, and Red Ring shields, etc. Armors that boost specific weapons by a % of their WeaponATP work differently, such as Thirteen and Sweetheart. They do interact with weapon attribute%s and adds to maximum atp variable for shifta).

Fomarl normal attacks vs Bartles with Maxed ATP RR excal 0% and excal 80% with/without 30shifta and with/without 1 male nearby for sweetheart boost

No Shifta

0 male 0% : 233-239 damage

1 male 0%: 259-267 damage

0 male 80%: 317-327 damage

1 male 80%: 341-355 damage

30 Shifta

0 male 0%: 366-373 damage

1 male 0%: 410-418 damage

0 male 80%: 452-460 damage

1 male 80%: 452-504 damage

Last one clearly shows it adds to maximum atp variable. ATP differences with/without shifta show a difference (without male to with male, no shifta1943 to 2085, and 30 shifta 2429 to 2575)

Example: Maxed Racast with 20 shifta with D-Parts 1.01 armor and Red Ring, using PR+80 25% Native on a Booma. (ATR%= attribute %s, ATPVar= ATP variable)

(1450BaseATP x 1.347shifta) + (ATPVar x 0.347shifta) + (WeaponATP x ATR%) + (Grind x 2) + (ArmorATP) + (ShieldATP) = FinalATP

(1953.15)_______________ + (0 x 0.347)_________ + (485 x 1.25)_________ + (80 x 2)___+ (35)______ + (20)______ = FinalATP

(1953.15)_______________ + (0) _______________ + (606.25)____________ + (160)____ + (35)______ + (20)______ = 2774.4

Edit: since you asked about what I was using for test in previous post, I was using racast with 1439 atp and 25 0 0 25 PR+80 and red ring on, with no shifta. Status screen showed 2104 total atp, therefore I had 2104 atp vs the caves and mines enemies, and 2225.25 vs the ruins enemies because of the 25 dark on pr adding another 121.5 atp (I actually made slight error vs the ruins enemies and was off by 20 dfp on all of them, but I edited it now).

Okay then how do you explain charge me mechs doing more damage in every situation than charge vulcan with 50 machine except when Sues coat is equipped? When sues coat is equipped charge vulcs with 50 machine does more. Tested this with max atp huney and hucaseal with and without shifta. Charge vulcs with percents always do more with sues and they do less without sues equipped.

Edited by Fyrewolf5
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Okay then how do you explain charge me mechs doing more damage in every situation than charge vulcan with 50 machine except when Sues coat is equipped? When sues coat is equipped charge vulcs with 50 machine does more. Tested this with max atp huney and hucaseal with and without shifta. Charge vulcs with percents always do more with sues and they do less without sues equipped.

Type ME/Mechguns: 10 atp, 30 grind

Vulcans: 5-20 atp, 9 grind

Vulcan 50%, 5-30atp 9 grind

Vulcan 50% with 20 shifta 5-35 atp, 9 grind (20 shifta, 34.7% ATPVar bonus x 15 variable = about 5 atp bonus to max variable)

Me/mechs add 70 atp total, Vulcans add 23-48 atp (23-53 atp with 20shifta). With a high enough shifta, eventually the max atp of vulcans can be higher than me/mechs (though the minimum will always be the same so average damage will still be lower). ME/Mechs are used because they have more ata than Vulcans, not so much because of the atp differences.

You can also see for yourself that Sue's Coat always adds 100 atp, regardless of if you have shifta or not (Adept acts weird sometimes so I took it off for this to be sure, it was on for the damage numbers though because I needed the ata. Hucaseal no adept 1391 without sue's, 1491 with, 1511 with sue+rr. With shifta20 and no adept 1871, with sues 1971, with sues+rr 1991)

some damage numbers

hucaseal maxed atp charge gatlings+6 (5-16 weapatp) 0dark vs me/mech+30 0dark vs dimenians

(gatlings are 5-16 atp, vulcans are 5-20 atp, but it's still close numbers)

no shifta no sues

charge gatlings 113-115 normal, 379-382 charge

type me/mechs 123 normal, 411 hard

no shifta with sues

charge gatlings 132-133 normal, 442-446 charge

with 20 shifta no sues

charge gatlings 201-203 normal, 673-678 charge

type me/mechs 210 normal 701 hard

with 20 shifta with sues

charge gatlings 218-221 normal, 727-735 charge

type me/mechs 228 normal, 760 charge

From these numbers I think that 10/3 or 3.3333333 is probably a slightly more accurate attack multiplier for sacrificial specials than 3.32.

Edited by Fyrewolf5
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Type ME/Mechguns: 10 atp, 30 grind

Vulcans: 5-20 atp, 9 grind

Vulcan 50%, 5-30atp 9 grind

Vulcan 50% with 20 shifta 5-35 atp, 9 grind (20 shifta, 34.7% ATPVar bonus x 15 variable = about 5 atp bonus to max variable)

Me/mechs add 70 atp total, Vulcans add 23-48 atp (23-53 atp with 20shifta). With a high enough shifta, eventually the max atp of vulcans can be higher than me/mechs (though the minimum will always be the same so average damage will still be lower). ME/Mechs are used because they have more ata than Vulcans, not so much because of the atp differences.

You can also see for yourself that Sue's Coat always adds 100 atp, regardless of if you have shifta or not (Adept acts weird sometimes so I took it off for this to be sure, it was on for the damage numbers though because I needed the ata. Hucaseal no adept 1391 without sue's, 1491 with, 1511 with sue+rr. With shifta20 and no adept 1871, with sues 1971, with sues+rr 1991)

some damage numbers

hucaseal maxed atp charge gatlings+6 (5-16 weapatp) 0dark vs me/mech+30 0dark vs dimenians

(gatlings are 5-16 atp, vulcans are 5-20 atp, but it's still close numbers)

no shifta no sues

charge gatlings 113-115 normal, 379-382 charge

type me/mechs 123 normal, 411 hard

no shifta with sues

charge gatlings 132-133 normal, 442-446 charge

with 20 shifta no sues

charge gatlings 201-203 normal, 673-678 charge

type me/mechs 210 normal 701 hard

with 20 shifta with sues

charge gatlings 218-221 normal, 727-735 charge

type me/mechs 228 normal, 760 charge

From these numbers I think that 10/3 or 3.3333333 is probably a slightly more accurate attack multiplier for sacrificial specials than 3.32.

It think you misunderstood. I'm saying Vulcans with percents that are normally weaker than Type ME Mechs are stronger when Sue's Coat is equipped. As you can see here. I can provide a video or you can try it yourself.

HUnewearl

h5kypvd.png

So what really sticks out here and is really weird is that Charge Vulcan with 50 percent in machine is weaker than Charge Type ME Mechgun in every situation (you can check other ones I posted) except when Sue's Coat is involved. With Sue's Coat equipped Charge Vulcans with 50% machine becomes stronger oddly enough. The same is true for HUcaseal. This would suggest that Armor ATP is affected by percents or something along those lines. I still need to figure this out. The damage calculation formula I post below was before I noticed this fact. So the Armor ATP (and probably Shield ATP) most likely go inside the parenthesis and not outside, but I have to do more testing to be sure.

Edited by tru
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It think you misunderstood. I'm saying Vulcans with percents that are normally weaker than Type ME Mechs are stronger when Sue's Coat is equipped. As you can see here. I can provide a video or you can try it yourself.

HUnewearl

h5kypvd.png

So what really sticks out here and is really weird is that Charge Vulcan with 50 percent in machine is weaker than Charge Type ME Mechgun in every situation (you can check other ones I posted) except when Sue's Coat is involved. With Sue's Coat equipped Charge Vulcans with 50% machine becomes stronger oddly enough. The same is true for HUcaseal. This would suggest that Armor ATP is affected by percents or something along those lines. I still need to figure this out. The damage calculation formula I post below was before I noticed this fact. So the Armor ATP (and probably Shield ATP) most likely go inside the parenthesis and not outside, but I have to do more testing to be sure.

Well if sues was affected you would probably notice a suddenly very large difference in damage variance for the gatlings, which it did not for me with my 0% ones (the sweetheart testing showed that happening, where the minimum damage was still the same with shifta and 1 male nearby, though I don't think I was quite extensive enough with the testing in other categories to get a low damage roll, it did prove that point in that one anyway). I should test with some D-Parts 1.01 armor too (I still have one in my hucaseal's bank that I was using while leveling) just in case sue's is weird for some reason (it is a server created item after all). My gatlings did have 0 dark, but I'm guessing you had some lucky high rolls on damage with the vulcans, like I said the maximum atp can outscale me/mechs with enough shifta. At the moment I'm feeling kinda lazy, I'll probably see what numbers I'm getting later on.

Edited by Fyrewolf5
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