Character stat changes - input wanted

[kom]

I'll put this here so people don't skip over it:

• There may not be any changes to the server based on this thread
• I'm not a GM or dev for Ultima
• Rumour mill says there is already some changes happening, whether that means discussed or actual files being changed I don't know.
• In case larva supports this, keep this thread clean, discussion is fine but arguing will destroy this

What is the goal of this?

The goal is to discuss what balance changes are needed to characters stats and I will create the server file for Ultima relating to base stats and provide instruction to edit in max stats. Then larva has the choice to use the file or not, from what I've been told this is the recommended way to get some results in terms of updating Ultima. I will be looking to finish this mini project and give it to larva within the next few days, so don't brush this off as another one of those talked about things that never happens. But there is no guarantee he will like it. Also the goal is not make all the characters equally good, otherwise there would be no variety but the point is to correct the trade off classes make between stats i.e. hucaseal has 20 more ATA than hucast, one might pick her to play a gun/slicer style hunter, that is the type of option that should be available to a player, but she loses 340 ATP and hit weapons are easy to get on Ultima, that's a big trade off that needs some correction.

Why? Why should we question ST's game balance?

Ever noticed how you rarely see some characters? Ever noticed that people who play those rarities complain a lot? I didn't see all the issues right away. But the fact is with increased stats and buffed enemies things are out of whack a bit. It's enough to make people avoid certain characters, when PSO should be about enjoying them all. For example the way enemy DFP and EVP works, you need a certain amount of ATP and ATA to be effective, without it you will hit 0s or miss, i.e. 1000 ATP doesn't mean twice as much damage as 500 ATP, the reality is on a monster the person with 500 ATP might hit 0 only and the 1000 ATP person can effectively kill it. In vanilla maybe all the characters were well over the threshold so say 20 ATA didn't show a big visible difference, but with the enemy EVP changed one character might be ineffective while another manages to cut it. Min/maxers will always pick droids and get their S/D from others its true, but that doesn't mean other characters should feel less useful or weak and not everyone has the option of just slapping a DM/DF on the character to make it go alright.

What can I add?

Feel free to add specific input such as class X needs exactly Y amount of ATA. Or just mention that some class needs more or less of something. I will be putting these into the Level 200 base stats where possible (with appropriate level up modifications from 1-200) and raising the max equally, so if you understand that sentence it means the existing material plans used will remain valid. Some classes however need their mat cap or the difference between base 200 and max 200 stats reviewed. If you think everyone should be able to max ALL their stats with only say 2 units, then post it see what others think, that would mean higher mat caps or higher base 200 stats relative to the max.

If you are just reading this for the first time, there has been plenty of discussion and changes to this post. I would consider this to be nearing a conclusion then I'll be making the files and a final write up to present to larva, so throw your 2 cents if you haven't already.

Here is my thoughts so far, colour coded as follows:
Important, if not then what else?
Possible, just a thought but should it be made important?
Noted, should be possible to implement along with this.

Humar:
Problems: Slightly underused, lacks 350 HP and 240 ATP on hucast for only 9 ATA, needs to bridge gap a bit.

• 175 HP.
• Allow S/D

Hunewearl:
Problems: Low ATP, low-moderate ATA, lowest hunter HP, worst difference between base 200 and max 200 stats in the game but only 150 mat cap,

• 125 more ATP
• 4 more ATA
• Higher base 200 stats, so less mats needed
• 100 more HP

Hucast:
Problems: None really, overused.

Hucaseal:
Problems: ATP and HP horrible for a droid.

• 175 more ATP
• 300 more HP
• 50 more DFP

Ramar:
Problems: None really, small boost wouldn't hurt.

• Allow J/Z

Ramarl:
Problems: None.

Racast:
Problems: None.

Racaseal:
Problems: Underused, not terrible but biggest flaw is how well rounded the other ranger characters are in comparison and low ATP.

• 100 ATP

Fomar:
Problems: Where to begin? Enough ATP to attack but not enough ATA and low defensive stats. Didn't really keep up with the buffed monsters. Makes kajex sad.

• 27 more ATA
• 200 more HP
• 80 more DFP

Fomarl:
Problems: ATA too low.

• 20 more ATA

Fonewearl:
Problems: HP too low, too many 1 shot scenarios with buffed monsters.

• 125 more HP

Fonewm
Problems: Not many.

• 30 more HP

Edited March 29, 2014 by kom

[Saber +7]

The only classes that really could use that boost is FOmar and HUnewearl and maybe HUcaseal but I think the rest of the classes are already pretty good but if HUmar could get s/d like it used to that would be cool, however this is a good thread and I agree with the idea but if any of the classes really need it is the 2 I listed they could use some serious fixing lol

[Bluesummers]

• HUmar should get s/d and slight boost to ATP
• HUcast should have more DFP and ATA
• FOmar also is in dire need of a boost to DFP I agree

Also this is a great thread and I hope there is no arguing

[Armando]

kom you're a genius

I don't agree with the hucast ata tho even tho i use one

Edited March 28, 2014 by Armando

[kom]

kom you're a genius

I don't agree with the hucast ata tho even tho i use one

Yea I'm fine with it, but I also know I've got great hit on my weapons and RR. I remember when I started though, I couldn't hit anything, I'd just afk for like Vol Opt and Falz was pointless. I guess the thought was some ATA won't make hucast any better in the top end than it already is, but it will help people trying to get up there. I know what you mean though, hard to consider buffing a character that's already miles ahead of the other 3 in its class.

• HUmar should get s/d and slight boost to ATP
• HUcast should have more DFP and ATA
• FOmar also is in dire need of a boost to DFP I agree

Also this is a great thread and I hope there is no arguing

Hopefully! I think in terms of Hucast DFP, while it is low (and obviously they get a lot in return for it), the main thing to note is that because of the mat usage you can't really get it much higher than base, so in fact hucast's have less DFP than they did on Sega servers even though the maximum stat is 100 higher on Ultima, kinda crazy right? I think what may end up happening, or at the very least me suggesting, is that across the board characters to have 50 more mat usage, that won't really affect current mat plans to max the main stats but it will mean people can use some Def/Evade mats.

The only classes that really could use that boost is FOmar and HUnewearl and maybe HUcaseal but I think the rest of the classes are already pretty good but if HUmar could get s/d like it used to that would be cool, however this is a good thread and I agree with the idea but if any of the classes really need it is the 2 I listed they could use some serious fixing lol

Yea for sure, I personally would like to give them a go, but hard to see myself enjoying being so sub par.

[MASSBLADE]

Hmmmm this is not all that bad, yeah I do agree with most of this and Armando's statement of HUcast as well as Wilson's HUmar changes but for the classes Kom has stated this is a little unusual for some people but yet again i do agree with this topic like 40% of it. But anyway Kom has set an example towards everyone with implying towards the server that if you are determined to get some changes towards the server done informing Larva is literally the only possible way, so Kom I greatly approve this =] However back to Square#1 with the topic ideas there is 1 major flaw in this plan that will go against the whole of PSO World stat guides and Ultima guides for maxing stats and mag stat builds etc unless you officially create a new guide towards these changes if they are made by Larva himself then it will not be a problem also for the reasons behind this will only go towards the Ultima server but there is a reason why some of these stats for certain characters exist, i'm not saying I disagree with these changes but some of the upgrading in stat numbers could cause a problem to the main purpose of certain classes. In addition towards this it will be also true that if you make some certain classes more stronger in stat and tech wise it could backfire and make other classes more rare to see in game also, so try to be careful on this one (Example: Boosting HUmar's ATP and HP and including S/D techs will totally defeat the purpose of HUcast and make them more rare, since it will compensate with their stat builds). It is always a good thing to know some people are determined to improve PSOBB and make it more interesting to look forward into playing but just remember the main Game Developers of the original PSO(1) did these stats for a reason to go towards these classes. Furthermore for the FO classes i'm with you 100% on that one because Ultima have developed the Mob so much compare to the other PSOBB servers or the original itself, I mean just look at Crack mode like wtf! 100% Megid immune ^^ that's a perfect example of what I mean for this bit.

...But yeah some really good ideas here Kom, I like what i'm seeing.

[squish]

Hey,

Good work on this, may it prosper to fruition .

I will try to be as short as possible

In general from what I have seen, the major issue with having buffed monsters is overall the ability to hit them. While that was discussed I would like to discuss a few other things.

It seems to me, and this is my honest opinion, that DEF and EVP are a bit "useless" when it comes down to it. HP seems the better option in this regard. (Notice how for example Shambertin will one shot any HP over 1700 with his tornados, while less HP survives. This isn't defense mediated. No difference in S/D levels would help in terms of those kind of attacks). In general even though RAcaseal was supposed to be the "Tanky" class, RAcast seems to be able to take A LOT more punishment than they can. Also Dark Falz swipe is HP dependant (i.e. minimum HP to survive).

Next thing I would like to provide my opinion on each class:

HUmar:

More HP would be a nice. 200 would be great as a start. (I don't think MST would make much of a difference in this case)

ATP would definitely be a plus, however one needs to take into consideration the J/Z. 50-75 ATP imo would be enough. One would argue a Zalure Gun on a Cast however not EVERYONE has the ability to get it (PD cost, Finding C Mode Teams etc.)

HUnewearl:

I totally agree with your suggestions. In addition to which let's not forget the 20 S/D she comes with.

HUcaseal:

Not a lot of experience with this class.

HUcast:

I think the ATA should remain as what it is. HUmar ATA caps at 205 iirc which provides a "small" edge on getting away with less hit weapons. I believe that's the trade-off between HUcast and HUmar in that case.

If you plan on increasing HUmar ATA to 210 and HUcast to 205 then you will have to significantly increase the HUmars ATP. By more than 150.

RAmar:

Not a lot of experience with this class but giving it J/Z might be a bit too much. They are indeed a great solo class on their own with the ATP they have. IIRC, RAmar's have S/D

RAmarl:

Again, totally agree.

RAcast:

Totally agree.

RAcaseal:

Not a lot of experience with this class. Adding more HP would be good too (to fulfill her "tanky" nature).

FOmar:

I agree with what you said. However I do have other qualms with it.

ATA should be a minimum of 200 to be effective in Melee tbh especially that most Melee FOmars try to acquire at least 40 hit weapons. In addition to which being able to use Psycho Ravens.

HP around 200-250. Maxing at 1450 puts it in very high danger when it comes to melee-ing.

Being able to use more swords or multi target weapons (not slicers). The choice few they can have is either not worth in attack power (except the Master Sword), in the very least if they believe it will upset the balance of FO Vs. HUmar then at least Partisans. (I mean all the partisans, even though they can use quite a few, the ability to obtain a high hit photon weapon would be a lot easier than a Soul Eater/Soul Banish/Asteron Striker/Scythe S- Rank).

Being able to use the Parasols/Bags etc. For when they need to support. Instead of having to change Barriers/Weapons and Armor every few minutes.

FOmarl:

If a boost to ATA is going to happen to FOmar, then FOmarl will also definitely need to be more. Demon Support is a big thing and she already supports really well.

FOnewearl:

Not a lot of experience with this class but they definitely need ATP. Like Defnitely. 200-250 worth.

FOnewman:

They are in need to be able to support effeciently.

Overall, excellent topic and keep up the good work!

I think I lied about keeping it short xD

Edited March 30, 2014 by squish

[MASSBLADE]

DEF and EVP are a bit "useless" when it comes down to it. HP seems the better option in this regard. (Notice how for example Shambertin will one shot any HP over 1700 with his tornados, while less HP survives. This isn't defense mediated. No difference in S/D levels would help in terms of those kind of attacks). In general even though RAcaseal was supposed to be the "Tanky" class, RAcast seems to be able to take A LOT more punishment than they can. Also Dark Falz swipe is HP dependant (i.e. minimum HP to survive).

That's a very good point Squish.

[Armando]

leave foney excaless

[kom]

Hey,

Good work on this, may it prosper to fruition .

I will try to be as short as possible

HUcast:

I think the ATA should remain as what it is. HUmar ATA caps at 205 iirc which provides a "small" edge on getting away with less hit weapons. I believe that's the trade-off between HUcast and HUmar in that case.

If you plan on increasing HUmar ATA to 210 and HUcast to 205 then you will have to significantly increase the HUmars ATP. By more than 150.

More the better as far as I'm concerned! I've been editing the first post like crazy, lots of input is good. Humar is currently 210, Hunewearl 209, Hucaseal 221 and Hucast 201 for ATA on Ultima. As for force ATA, Fomar is 173 (lol), Fomarl 180, fonewm 190, fonewearl 196. I'd be hesitant to make force ATA higher than Hucast, but you are right 200 seems a minimum to be effective. I agree a lot with Humar hp, supposed to be the beefy human with the big sword but has a pansy hp bar, as for ATP boost well from the input so far allowing S/D would probably be better/enough.

[MASSBLADE]

lol Kom that was expected dude I totally do not blame you for that =D Cause when it comes to stat changes it is pretty tough to deal with the composition in all of it.

[kom]

lol Kom that was expected dude I totally do not blame you for that =D Cause when it comes to stat changes it is pretty tough to deal with the composition in all of it.

I was totally writing a long reply to your first post then other posts popped up and I got lost in all my tabs lol. If I get these changes pushed through (and maybe even if I don't) I will post on here updated versions of these 3 things that I already have for existing Ultima stats:

1. Excel spreadsheet for maxing all characters (auto calculates mag/materials for you based on your equips)
2. An app with less info than the excel sheet, but same feature for quick plans and no excel required
3. Text based guide on the forum here with suggested optimum gear/mag/mats for each character.

I edited the first post with what I think the discussion so far up to this point has indicated, and put in specific values for each change. If you are new to the thread take some time to read the replies so far, lots of good points. Bed time now, will check again tomorrow. Thanks everyone so far.

Edited March 28, 2014 by kom

[MASSBLADE]

ahh cool =D

[kajex]

Two reasons this discussion might not be needed:

• New easter event items address some of the things Kom brought up in the first post
• Prestige has been making some progress. The idea of prestige is to allow increases to stats.

Between these two things, many of the concerns addressed will be resolved.

[Lee]

I have one thing to say and it's nothing to do with rebalance, fuck psow, all they do is snub those of us who actually bother to keep this game alive for mostly dick sucking reasons none of which actually make any sense.

Prestige has been making some progress. The idea of prestige is to allow increases to stats.

Client controls the stats, both max mats and base as well as the mat usage hard cap, unless prestige users use a different client this will never happen, a soft cap d/cing users for over using materials also makes no sense.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Lee